Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: chribu on June 08, 2006, 09:13:37 AM
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A firend of mine just pointed this out to me:
Terrain blocks LOS if the major body portions of the model are completely obscured or if the model is in base-to-base contact with the terrain.
I'm not sure I understand the second part. When does it block LOS while in base-to-base contact even if major body portions are not completely obscured?
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Second thing: major body portions.
Major body portions: arms, legs, head, torso
Body portions that aren't major: hands and feet
Is this right?
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I'm not certain where your friend is getting the "base to base with terrain" idea from unless (s)he is referring to being in cover.
I've moderated national tourney's before and this was my take on it (rough and subjective as it may be) In order to gain benefit from cover, at least half of the model most be hidden. However, If more than three quarters of the model is hidden by the terrain then the model is out of LOS. This goes both ways though. If a model is behind cover and out of LOS then they can not fire either unless they spend an action to break cover.
The only other thing that I can think of is the MP status. If a model is in MP behind any type of cover then the model is considered out of LOS. This is how you get the "pop, shot, and drop" or the crude version "dick dancing" situation.
I hope this helps to clarify for you.
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he said he quoted the manual (that at the moment I don't have on me).
I've always done the same as you for cover. However, for LOS, i've done as that phrase in the manual: "Terrain blocks LOS if the major body portions of the model are completely obscured"
So, for example, if i hit the model's head with the laser (and the model itself has a standard pose, not a silly one) there's LOS.
Having to use one action to switch between out-of-LOS and behind-cover would allow dick dancing..
In fact as taking MP behind cover to break LOS was a debated but not solved issue, over here in Italy we've ruled against it.
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We always make them declare intent.
IE. they can go MP behind cover to break LOS but they have to declare it. but that's just here. And usually you can manuever enough to see around the cover and nullify that too.
I'm not entirely certain where he's gettin the base-to-base blocking LOS, maybe he's confused on Cover.
-PFC joe
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We've always played that if the model behind the cover can shoot you then you have LOS to him and can shoot him with the cover penalty. Unless he's DD as Chribu stated.
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He said page 32 paragraph 1.3
Terrain blocks LOS if the major body portions of the model are completely obscured or if the model is in base-to-base contact with the terrain
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It also states in the same paragraph that if there is any doubt about LOS, simply get down to eye level of the models. If you can see the target, you can shoot it.
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so... the base-to-base thing is to be ignored?
I don't understand... :(
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Let me simplify it for you if your in B to B contact with a piece of terrain and you dont wat a LOS argument with your opponent just declair your models LOS or that you have no LOS so neither does your Opponent.
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And how tall/big should this piece of terrain be to allow no-LOS? Hard cover? light cover? So I can break LOS behind anything that gives me hard cover?
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Tall enough to hit behind. A waist high wall that you are in B to B with will only give you hard cover and does'nt block LOS.
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So... 75% you said? But i didn't find that measure anywhere on the manual...
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Waist high is 50% not 75%, and at 75% there is still LOS to you. PG 55 9.4.3 Limiting Terrain blocks LOS if it is taller than the model. also under 9.5.2 same pg there is a picture showing the waist high terrain in referrence to cover.
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...
i still don't get it...
Can you show me an example where
"Terrain blocks LOS if the major body portions of the model are completely obscured" does not apply (i.e. not all major body portions are obscured)
BUT
"Terrain blocks the model as it is in base-to-base contact with the terrain" applies?
That is, an example where I can actually see some of the major body portions of the model (such as the head) but it's not considered heavy cover but it's considered breaking LOS?
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Your making this difficult simply put if you can see it you can shoot it. If you are not in B to B contact with terrain that is considered hard cover but are within 4 inches of it it is considered that LOS is obscured for a -1 to RC. The paragraph on pg 32 1.3 LOS when talking about B to B contact with major portions covered is reffering to models that have arms , weapons, equip that because of posing sticks out from behind the cover. This is when LOS is blocked do to posing .
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Ok...
so...
If i consider a standard model stance (no arms or things sticking out), if I can see at least one of head-shoulders-torso-legs I can always hit it, even if it's in base contact with terrain?
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Example ;D
(http://www.chribu.com/tmp/mutant1/los1.jpg)
(http://www.chribu.com/tmp/mutant1/los2.jpg)
the grunt is in base contact
the specialist isn't in base contact
the specialist can see the grunt's head and can point a gun at him
the grunt can see the specialist (can he shoot at him though?)
soo...
grunt can shoot at specialist with -1
specialist can shoot at grunt with -3
?
the grunt can use one action to break LOS (and another to go back to LOS) [without actually moving the miniature, like doing MP to dick dance]? in that case, what if the owner of the grunt didn't declare what he was doing with the grunt (break LOS or not) and it's the specialist's turn now [new turn, specialist won the activation]?
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In the example provided, if I was moderating the game I would not allow a shot. There is not enough of the model exposed to allow it. I was the one who mentioned the 50% and 75% rule as a general guideline because this is what I have used before when moderating national tourneys. Ultimately this comes down to good sportsmanship as every model is different and the ruling has to be subjective. If you and your opponent can not agree then just role the peacemaker.
Also, I do not like or ever thought about using the "state whether your model can be seen or not". Either there is proper cover to break LOS or there isn't. But, I will state that I (and the rest of my group) do use the MP behind cover = out of LOS. This rule was stated to me directly by Thom at a Convention before running the tourney. This rule was to eliminate arguments over cover and MP bonuses stacking. At first I must admit that I hated the ruling because it completely changed the feel and tactics of the game. Now that I am used to it I think that it adds another element and makes the game even more strategic.
I hope this clarifies some issues for you.
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other feedback on this? just to understand if this is the common rule...