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Chronopia => Open Discussion => Topic started by: Buzzu on September 22, 2015, 02:27:45 PM

Title: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on September 22, 2015, 02:27:45 PM
Hy everyone.

As emerged on many posts on this forum, there are some units that gave all the players some perplexion.
As a player, I always let it go, choosing not to field those units, maybe.
But, seen that every player is a playtester, and seen that some adjustments were made after the main rulebook for some units, I'm purposing now a thread to ask for some little more adjustment to give more satisfaction to the unhappy players, and to give a tactical and background boost to the different troops of the game.

I really, really appreciated the modifications from first edition to the second one, but there are some troops that really give all the players a question mark when reading the stats and the relative cost.

I invite then all the players to tell which units are worth a discussion about, and I invite everyone to be really careful about it: don't make posts asking for a three point adjustment just beacause you think the right cost is three points less or more... give some serious tactical (or background reason) and let's try to identify no more than five units to discuss about. AND give a suggestion for the change, please, don't limit your intervention to a complain.

In my humble opinion, having played many armies and having discussed it with my friends, the most insensate units are the following ones:

1) Swamp Goblin Headhunters
They cost three points less than the Mantis Guard, which is superior in almost every aspect. There's no tactic relevance for the headhunters, and no reason to prefeer them instead of the guardians. So, by reflecting together with Jr Boyd and Kvaerne, we suggest two different options. A) Increase the cost of three points (making them equal to the mantis guard) but give them the berserk special ability. This would reflect better their background and would give them an offensive relevance in play. B) Letting their cost untouched but give them 4 inches of move (instead of 3) and give them the sweep.

2) Blackblood goblin spearmen
Compared with all the other armies of the game, this unit is too cheap for what they do. I suggest to elevate their cost at least to 12 AP each.

3) SoK Berserkers
They cost 52 points and are fragile as paper sheets. For one point more I can field viridian lords, and there's no comparison in power. The berserkers are really well fitted with their background and they have great abilities, but the price is nonsense. I suggest to let the price untouched but give them two wounds OR three actions. Otherwise low down the price to something closer to a blade maiden, considering they are the only alternative to those ones if playing the shadow tribe.

4) Mounted warbands
There are many mounted warbands between the armies. I'm thinking to the swamp goblin drone riders or to the devout blood hunters...
I think the price is really too high. I can understand that a mounted hero is powerful leader, but a warband should have the chance to be fielded whole, and I NEVER saw a player put on the filed a complete mounted warband, because if you do it there's no room for other units.
I think they should be lowered down of a tenth of AP. If you think it's a lot, try to consider that you HAVE to put at least a couple of them plus leader.

5) Dwarf wolf legion
I've not understood why the gauntlets have been adjusted in the FAQ with a movement of 3, while the swordsman no. I played them, till now, with two different movements even if in the same warband. Am I wrong? Hope so...

Ok, these are my suggestions. Please, tell if you agree or not, and if there's something else to adjust (remember, think about many times before opening unuseful discussions...).
Try always to remember that we're trying to have FUN. The needing of adjustment is born from the desire of fielding units we just don't play like they are now.

If we all agree to the suggested changes, we can ask for an official FAQ. That's the power of democracy!  ;)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on September 22, 2015, 02:30:33 PM
I forgot a very important one:

6) Orc alchemist
Adding the limit of "one every 1000 AP" as any other magician in the game.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on September 26, 2015, 02:19:23 PM
Hey... not all together, guys!  :-[

I thought this was something to share and discuss together... am I the only one to ask for some adjustment? I don't think so...  :-\

Anyway: of all the ones listed above, I'd be happy even if only the 1) and 3) would be fixed.
Headhunters and berserkers.
The other ones are less important.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Jr_Boyd on September 27, 2015, 08:39:19 AM
1) I like both but I think berserk would be cool

2) All my books show Goblin spearmen at 16 points

3) I like three actions better than an extra wound. Extra wound should be for heroes and big models.

4) I don't agree on this one, most mounted war band the figures cost 60-80 pts each. So to have three models it cost 180 - 240 pts. Five assault warriors are 232 puts, Four Desert warriors 180 puts and they don't have the movement or extra attacks a mounted model does.

5) Agree MV 3 both
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on September 27, 2015, 11:25:39 AM
You're right. It's 16 AP for the spearmen. I don't know why I was sure they were cheaper. Sorry  :P

Thanks for the rest.

BTW... what about 6)?
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Jr_Boyd on September 27, 2015, 01:13:58 PM
I was looking and i could not find anywhere that says only one mage per 1000. I know you are correct on this but is that a correction in print somewhere? Can you point me to where it says that? As far as the Alchemist he is not nearly as offensive as a mage he is more of a healer who has gadgets. Fire Bomb is very unreliable and more can go wrong than right and wound Transfer is one of his most threatening abilities and if they have any leadership easy to avoid. I am on the fence on this one.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on September 27, 2015, 02:21:14 PM
Probably you never played with an opponent who puts on the field three alchimists to resurrect and heal an ogre mirmidon bull cavalry or an ogre deathseeker... making them almost immortal.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on September 28, 2015, 12:17:24 PM
My regular opponent fields two alchemists almost all the time.  The limit on most other spellcasters in the game to one per 1000 points was never applied to the Alchemist.  I'm pretty sure the Swamp Goblin Headhunters are overpriced for the points.  I'll see if I can run the points cost by Thom and see how much.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on September 29, 2015, 03:57:27 AM
Thank you man.  ;)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on November 11, 2015, 12:24:16 PM
I've been playtesting the Headhunters with a two point reduction in cost.  It feels right, and they are okay to field.  The spearmen are 11 points, leader 13.   Heavy spearmen are 20, leader 22.  Try these numbers and post your findings.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on November 18, 2015, 04:05:49 AM
Well... I'll gladly try these new costs. At least for the spearmen (I don't use the heavy spearmen, I prefer to give a normal spearmen waband the equivalent bonuses through standard and drum, adding a novice shaman. It costs the same).

But, regarding headhunters, the matter was not about price. The matter is that I can see no tactic reasonable use of this unit. That's why me and Kvaerne and Boyd suggested to give them the berserker ability. This could change them a lot. They would became a unit of impact, charging and delivering great damage. And I was going to pay them more, if boosted up with this ability.
To tell you the truth, I'm not so pleased to pay them a little less if I can see no use for them in the army. I would prefere to pay them more but with a right impact on the field.

You told you tried them in game and you felt ok. Can I ask you how you used them? To do what?

Thank you so much, btw.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on November 19, 2015, 01:14:57 PM
I will post a lot more on all of thoughts about the Swamp Goblins in time.  For now, I think of the Headhunters as similar to the SoK Hearthguard.  They do a little less damage, and have less armor, but the principle is the same.  They hit harder than any of the spearmen, and odds are decent they will do that if you move them behind terrain/cover or behind a better protected unit against missiles. 

I will be running them again Monday night, and will continue the discussion.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on November 23, 2015, 03:35:37 AM
Today I'll test a goblin army including spearmens with your lowered price (I don't use heavy spearmen) and the headhunters like I suggested:

36 pts each,
33 pts leader

60 pts hero.

BUT they all have the berserk ability.

I'll let you know how they work.

Stay tuned.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on November 25, 2015, 02:01:09 AM
Ok. I tried on a test game the following display:

FIRSTBORN army 1000pts

Chronomancer with accelerate
Repulsar marksman
Repulsar knight
5 crossbowmen + leader
4 archers + leader
4 swordsmen + greatswordman + leader + standard bearer (+1 strenght)
4 iron guards

GOBLIN ARMY 999pts (I considered the spearmen at 11pts each and leader at 13; and the headhunters at 36 each with leader at 33 and hero at 60, but all of them with the berserker ability).

5 spearmen + leader + novice shaman (power blowpipe)
5 spearmen + leader + novice shaman (power blowpipe)
4 headhunters + leader + standard bearer (-1 def)
4 headhunters + leader + standard bearer (-2RC)
Headhunter hero
2 hunting spiders + novice shaman (power blowpipe).
4 webmasters + leader.


The test was to check the efficiency of the headhunters set like above.

Well... they REALLY work. Lowering down the price of the spearmen allows more room for elite pieces.

I lost, but the firstborn had only 5 pieces left; three crossbowmen (two of them sticked prone in a web), a panicked archer and the repulsar (with two wounds).

Covering the headhunters from ranged attack with the spearmen, when they get into melee they break really hard. I deleted the iron guard.

I really think they should be fixed like that. Same cost of a mantis guard, different role. And the hero, with a berserker ability, is something to really worry about for his enemies...

Try them!
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Jr_Boyd on November 26, 2015, 09:41:29 AM
No pictures of the fight?  :'(
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on November 27, 2015, 08:50:46 AM
A bunch of unpainted minis on a black table... are them worthy of a picture? :D
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Jr_Boyd on November 27, 2015, 02:31:25 PM
OH BUZZU,

You make me sad, get to painting. besides all my stuff is not painted either but showing it makes me want to get it done.



Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on December 07, 2015, 10:16:01 AM
Yeah but you're painting with beautifull skill. I'm a very basic painter, and since I don't keep my pieces in a showcase but in boxes where they're very tight (they're too much!) I think they would be ruined soon when painted.
Anyway... sooner o later (in another life maybe) I'll do it.

Coming back to the theme of the thread, does anybody played the goblins with the prices/ability suggestions we made?
I'm seriously considering to pass to this army, but only with the proper adjustements.

BTW, I played a mini warband of Sok berserkers (2+LD) in a match. More than this it's too expensive. Well... they did the work. I charged a tenebrous crawler and killed him in one single turn, than I run them to a sister of tiamat, and they let the monster with one wound only, just to be... killed in a single attack when it activated.
I really like their stats, but the price is nonsense. I agree with the ones who said that they fill the gap in the shadow tribe where the blaid maidens are in for the other two tribes, but they cost a lot more! I suggested two ways of fixing: let them the same price but give them two wounds, or low down the price. Maybe something little above 40. Express your opinion about it.

What about mounted warbands? Do you think their cost is correct? Who fields a complete mounted warband between you players?
 
Don't let the question fall. Let's get to something.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on December 07, 2015, 06:44:32 PM
I got Thom to go over the entire swamp goblin army list by the numbers.  It will be posted soon.  Buzzu, the headhunters are 23 points, with the leader at 30. 
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on December 08, 2015, 12:26:29 PM
No berserking so... What a shame  ;D

Well, I'm thrilling at the idea, and can't wait for!
Anyway, if the costs are reducing so much, I'm happy I have so many miniatures!  :)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on December 08, 2015, 03:28:28 PM
I'm going over the list tonight with a red pen for Thom.  There are some additional cavalry being introduced for the Swamp Goblins that I think you will like.

Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on December 08, 2015, 04:33:57 PM
Yay!!!

Something with the ants, I hope! I have 12 ant minis ready to use...  ;D
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: kvaerne on December 29, 2015, 03:30:11 AM
Nothing new ? ???
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on December 29, 2015, 11:12:51 AM
Okay.  Take notes.  I will post the experimental troops later.

Swamp Goblins points adjustments.

Spearmen: 10
Leader: 12

Heavy Spearmen: 19
Leader: 21

Webmasters: 24
Leader: 28

Headhunters: 23
Leader: 30

Mantis Guard: 31
Leader: 36

Mantis Champion: 75

Headhunter Champion: 54

Blowpipers: 30
Leader: 33

Drone Riders: 72
Leader: 75

Novice Shaman: 25  Remove Commanding Presence from the profile.

Sentinel: 111

Fiend: 131

Shaman on Drone: 99
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Jr_Boyd on December 29, 2015, 11:15:53 AM
Hey Josh,

Can you post this as a official adjustment and I will go on Army Builder and make the changes to the Army builder files. I have admin rights but I don't want to make an update until it is "official"
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on December 29, 2015, 11:41:31 AM
These are almost official.   ;)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on December 29, 2015, 12:02:23 PM
Nice ones. I undetstand some of, less others, but I'll surely test them like that. I can understand the idea that lowering down troops you pushed high some heroes. I'm inhappy only for the blowpipers, and, as I already told, I would have liked a more violent and  specific profile for the headhunters. But now, lowered down of 10 points each, they simply have to be played in another way. Not an Úlite, but tons of. Thank you!
I'll let you know how they work ;)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on December 29, 2015, 12:57:47 PM
Go for it!! 
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: FCM on December 29, 2015, 03:29:01 PM
Buzzu Writes:
"3) SoK Berserkers
They cost 52 points and are fragile as paper sheets. For one point more I can field viridian lords, and there's no comparison in power. The berserkers are really well fitted with their background and they have great abilities, but the price is nonsense. I suggest to let the price untouched but give them two wounds OR three actions. Otherwise low down the price to something closer to a blade maiden, considering they are the only alternative to those ones if playing the shadow tribe."

great suggestion! these models are unplayable with the current statistics.
please update this unit. thank you! :)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on December 30, 2015, 01:36:59 PM
I tried the goblins in a test. They seem to work good ;)
On January the 5 I will try them against other players, and I'll let you know.

As FCM says, now I'm only waiting for the berserkers to be fixed, and... I'll be a happy player!!! :D
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on December 30, 2015, 06:30:08 PM
It may be a while on them.  Stay tuned.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: FCM on January 01, 2016, 12:31:38 PM
I ask special attention for unity "Swamp Goblin heavy spearmen"
I can not find usefulness of this band ....

By enhancing simple Spearman is canceled their choice.

only the ability "Attack Group" do not justify their purchase.

what do you think?

Thank you!
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on January 05, 2016, 03:24:16 PM
I ask special attention for unity "Swamp Goblin heavy spearmen"
I can not find usefulness of this band ....

By enhancing simple Spearman is canceled their choice.

only the ability "Attack Group" do not justify their purchase.

what do you think?

Thank you!


1 point of CC. 1 point of LD.  2 points of armor. And Group Attack at 5 and you have the answer.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on January 13, 2016, 04:57:37 PM
Hy Josh... what about that new cavalry unit for the goblins? We're all waiting for info to create the right proxy! ;)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on January 13, 2016, 06:29:40 PM
Spider riders tomorrow. :)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on January 14, 2016, 01:21:01 AM
Spider riders? I thought the sentinel was already that.  :D
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on January 14, 2016, 08:24:10 AM
These spider riders let you use your models from another manufacturer who will remain anonymous.

Spider Riders (2-6)
CC: 9 for rider, 9 for Spider
RC: 8
LD: 11 for rider, 10 for Spider
AC: 2 for rider, 2 for Spider
WD: 2
ST: 3/3
MV: 5
AR: 14
Def: -2
Size: 3
Cost: 35

Equipment:  Chitin Spear, 3 +5,  Bite, 8
Classification:  Mortal/Beast

Special Rules:  Swamp Warrior,  Mounted Troop,  May purchase a standard or Drum (1 per 3 troops, both for 6)


Swamp Spider Rider Leader (1)
CC: 10/9 for spider
RC: 8
LD: 12/10 for Spider
AC: 2/2
WD: 2
ST: 3/3
MV: 5
AR: 14
Def: -2
SZ: 3
Cost: 38

Swamp Warrior, Mounted Troop  Chitin Poleaxe 3+6,  Bite 8
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on January 15, 2016, 12:47:56 PM
Hmmm..... The price is really gorgeous! I think I will recycle my ants instead of the spiders... It changes few, just the name ;P

Let me ask if I undetstood rightly. The unit is made of 2-6 riders, and ONE OF THEM may be a standard bearer or a drummer, if you have at least two riders already. You can have both only if you have four  normal riders (and always the leader, of course). So, the maximum warband is made up of four riders, a standard bearer, a drummer, and the leader. OR simply six riders and a leader. But NOT six riders, a drummer, a standard, and a leader. Right? The full WB is made up of seven members, not nine. Is it correct?
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: joshuaslater on January 15, 2016, 05:09:15 PM
7.  You are correct.
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: Buzzu on March 19, 2016, 12:26:37 AM
Ok. I've done them. Now i have to paint them, and this will require much more time...  ;D

Still waiting to test them on the field, of course.

By the way... any news about the sok breserkers price revision?  ::)
Title: Re: UNITS REVISION: The power of democracy!
Post by: FCM on September 07, 2019, 04:37:27 AM
upgrade.

We have fought several battles with the modified costs of the Swamp Goblins, we can say that the tests have all passed ... now the force Swamp G. is formidable!

everything can be official!