Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Open Discussion => Topic started by: Niart Gunn on January 31, 2012, 05:10:32 PM
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First of all, hello everyone
I'm part of a small group of swiss dudes that started playing Warzone again some months ago and I once again fell in love with the game, the flavour, just everything. Of course, the saddest thing for me is that there will hardly be any new stuff for the game ever, in addition to some small issues I have with the UWZ rules, even though it seems the most awesome of the three editions.
Thus, I had an idea for a thread which could help playgroups to adjust or invent some things for their favourite tabletop themselves. Since doing so obviously requires some knowledge of the point cost system used in UWZ, everyone thinking about why something is as it is coud use some help. Especially due to the fact that the system probably is very complex to reverse-engineer (some input from the glorious Thom would be awesome), my experience when developing an own tabletop system a few years ago showed that.
I even saw that some guys here have some pretty extensive knowledge of exactly that system (see Enkers post here (http://forum54.oli.us/index.php/topic,6937.0.html)).
I am not exactly sure if this would cause any copyright issues, but I would love to see this thread becoming some kind of compendium of the point system used in Ultimate Warzone for unit and weapon stats, abilities and all kinds of special effects. Every help is deeply appreciated.
Toodles, Niart
Disclaimer: While I'd get to some part that someone could dislike the idea of fiddling with the holy bible that is the UWZ Rulebook, I really don't intend to hurt any feelings, and you'll probably never play against me anyways.
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Hello Niart!
First of all, welcome to the game and to the forum! I do believe you´ve made a good choice with UWZ. It´s one of the best sets of rules for tabletop games from a tactician´s point of view, and with the rich Mutant Chronicles universe, it has a lot of background flavour.
I am sure the Warzone guys on this forum can help you with the math for points costs. Not all games have a fixed formula for this, though, and calculating will only get you so far in balancing your troops. Stat and ability combinations can result in synergistic effects that are not reflected in the points.
To illustrate: If, say, an additional fire action costs a fixed amount of points, it will still be more valuable on a model with a high ranged combat stat and/or heavy-hitting weapon than it would be on a rookie with a pistol. On the first example, it will kill an average of one more enemy model per round, while you´ll be lucky to get a single additional kill out of the ability over the course of a game on the second example – all for the same cost in the formula. This is why points costs in most games have no mathematical basis; they are usually based on rule-of-thumb and intuition of the game designers and playtesters.
Even if you come up with a number that is not too arbitrary, it won´t apply to any and all situations. At this point I would like to quote Jon Tuffley, of StarGrunt II fame:
(...) We had initially intended to include a POINTS VALUE system for "costing" units, to enable players to produce game forces that were theoretically "balanced". After long consideration, we decided not to take this route; there are a number of reasons for this decision.
Firstly, any kind of points value system is horribly artificial – none of them really work properly. A unit of troops is both more AND less than the sum of its parts, and if you start adding up the "cost" of each trooper in terms of armour, weapons, training etc., and then add all the men up to make the squad, you end up with some abstract number that in no way reflects the real capabilities of the squad in game terms. Most points systems fool players into thinking they´ve got "equal" armies, when in fact they´ve got nothing of the sort.
Second, the use of points actually encourages players to do exactly what we DON´T want them to do. It seems to start some players thinking in a kind of competition mentality, trying to find loopholes in the rules that will allow them to get that little edge over their opponent by exploiting the system. (...) (StarGrunt II, p.10 f)
I have found this to be true on more than one occasion, and I cannot say that I am completely free of that sort of thinking myself.
Furthermore, it is the type of scenario we play that really decides the relative value of your troops. If there is mainly open terrain with little cover, a cheap squad of Hussars will mince the most expensive close assault troops. If the objective is to reach a designated area first, quick troops will have an advantage over slower troops that is not reflected in their points cost. While the points value is a rough indicator one can start with, I have always found it necessary to balance things depending on the scenario: by assigning more points to one player, by rearranging the terrain in favour of the disadvantaged side, or by adding a one-sided handicap to the victory conditions.
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What I have found out is that there excists a point system that works for Capitol and Bauhaus quiet good.
The attributes have fixed values and most times the special abilities cost the same, too.
For the weapons it is more complicated and here it doesn't fit always.
But I think we have found a good guideline here, too.
For Imperial and Mishima the point system doesn't match more often.
I think the creators have calculated the points in some way and after playtesting they modified some things by hand.
I will write more about it soon, but at the moment our pdf has priority.
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I am not exactly sure if this would cause any copyright issues,
I am very interested about this, since I think I exactly decrypted the rubric. I would like to post my results here, but I know that there are some implications...
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Please keep it to yourself for the time being!! Thom is looking into online sites that will allow him to put troops online. I speak to him, but not for him. I know everyone would just love to create everything and go wild, myself included, but he's figuring out how he wants to do this.
It took me five years to convince him to partner up with me and get a tiny online store launched after all the chaos of the Excelsior days.
I did tell him that I won't wait that long to see us gaming with many more models. :D
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good luck with that.
I can't even get a call back. :p
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Please keep it to yourself for the time being!! Thom is looking into online sites that will allow him to put troops online. I speak to him, but not for him. I know everyone would just love to create everything and go wild, myself included, but he's figuring out how he wants to do this.
It took me five years to convince him to partner up with me and get a tiny online store launched after all the chaos of the Excelsior days.
I did tell him that I won't wait that long to see us gaming with many more models. :D
What do you think, how long should we keep our investigations on the point system for ourself?
Or how long should we wait with our fan-made pdf about which we have talked in another topic a few weeks ago?
What I notice at the moment is that the small community which is left doesn't want to wait anymore.
They (me too) want to bring Warzone forward by their own as long as a rest of community is alive.
To often something "new" was promised.
With all given respect to Thom and the Crew and a big thanks for UWZ, but I cannot believe in new official units any more.
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I understand. Archer has been working on this for even longer than me. :'(
Thom is looking at Obsidian Portal, wiki, or some other means of putting the stuff online.
There was a ton of material that didn't get to print.
That's what has been discussed.
I'll keep reminding him. Please respect his wishes as he's the one paying the bills for the boards.
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I understand. Archer has been working on this for even longer than me. :'(
Thom is looking at Obsidian Portal, wiki, or some other means of putting the stuff online.
There was a ton of material that didn't get to print.
That's what has been discussed.
I'll keep reminding him. Please respect his wishes as he's the one paying the bills for the boards.
Of course we will respect it and wait patient, but not until judgement day which will be on the 21.12.2012 accorrding to the Maya ;D.
I really hope this time something happens. ::)
Please keep us informed meanwhile.
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I appreciate that Enker, and it's funny as hell. If the Mayans are correct, and the world turns into Dark Eden, we'll be worried about more than toy soldiers. ;D
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Talamania is this May.
Thom will have handouts for everyone. I don't know how much will go online at that moment, but I hope that gives you an idea of the time frame.
Slightly faster than glacier speed.
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Talamania is the May.
Thom will have handouts for everyone. I don't know how much will go online at that moment, but I hope that gives you an idea of the time frame.
Slightly faster than glacier speed.
NOOOOO!!! Once again i cannot be there, but i wants them... my preciousssssssss...
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Glad to see that my thread got some attention, and I finally found time to reply.
First of all, I do know that a point system that accounts for everything perfectly is very unlikely to be found in any game, but still, you have to start somewhere when developing a game and then begin to tweak your initial system. At least that's how I'd do it, and Enker's and Pollo's replies seem to confirm that.
What I do not get, however, is why Thom would be so averse to people publicly posting their results regarding the point system. With all due respect to him, the UWZ crew and their nice work, the game is pretty much dead by now and could only profit if the playerbase could go ahead and do their own stuff with it. If he's actually planning to release new units, then please, don't do it as handouts at talamania, since, you know, not everyone can be there and at the point where it's not even put online, it just becomes really mean for the people abroad who don't want to travel around half the globe just to get some new numbers on a sheet of paper.
I'm sorry, but I really cannot respect the wishes of a person who obviously ranks one part of the playerbase higher than another one, seemingly based only on the place of origin.
So Enker and Pollo, I would be much obliged if you guys could send me your findings either per PM or email sometime. I'm also very interested in the pdf you're talking about Enker and would love to see it once it's finished.
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I'll clarify. Talamania will see new stuff, and if I have my way, it will go online.
If Thom wants to crank out a book, he may not want to spill everything in an open forum; I speak to him, but not for him.
Again, it took me five years of effort to get Thom on board to sell a few models online. I hope to see the game engine come to life much sooner than that.
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I am not exactly sure if this would cause any copyright issues,
I am very interested about this, since I think I exactly decrypted the rubric. I would like to post my results here, but I know that there are some implications...
I actually have that information....but I don't think it's something I can disclose. I wouldn't mind privately commenting on "how close" your information is, however....
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Dear Joshuaslater and TPrime.
T VI happened and now we are curious about any new units. Have you done it?
Can you please post them as soon as possible to the forum?
Best Regards
Micmellon
I'll clarify. Talamania will see new stuff, and if I have my way, it will go online.
If Thom wants to crank out a book, he may not want to spill everything in an open forum; I speak to him, but not for him.
Again, it took me five years of effort to get Thom on board to sell a few models online. I hope to see the game engine come to life much sooner than that.
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I responded to your pm, but I'll let people know that new units for Chronopia will be going up tonight, and I'll let you know what Thom is doing with all of his source material.
Thom is going to use either Wiki, or the Obsidian Portal to start putting everything out for the community.
I'm going to just post the Chronopia stuff on the forums.
First one up tonight is the Blackblood Cyclops. ;D
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I responded to your pm, but I'll let people know that new units for Chronopia will be going up tonight, and I'll let you know what Thom is doing with all of his source material.
Thom is going to use either Wiki, or the Obsidian Portal to start putting everything out for the community.
I'm going to just post the Chronopia stuff on the forums.
First one up tonight is the Blackblood Cyclops. ;D
Wow.. that is great news... looking forward to reading this stuff.
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How about news on the unpublished UWZ books - partic vehicles?
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Hi, did anything ever happen with this?
Thanks,
John
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I would like to know that too.
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A positive update would be nice... ...as a kind of X-mas present for the community...
just one or two units as a starting point...
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I'll have to pry more information out of him. The Chronopia stuff is cool, but is it Warzone stuff you really want?? I didn't get a ton of feedback on the Chronopia units.
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Sorry. I play only Warzone and it is hard enough to get a Warzone game running because I pretty busy with my little family and my job... there is no point in starting a second extreme time consuming hobby...
But I like the units you released for Chronopia... looks like fun to play with them…
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Did not much like the new official Chronopia units... no offense, Joshua. They did not feel (to me) like they really fit in with the background, with the possible exception of the Blackblood Cyclops and Lökoth´s Beastmen (which had the distinction of being a tad too complex rules-wise, though). In all, I found the new units rather flashy – witness demonic-slug-throwing lacrosse Devout. I would have preferred concepts that rounded out an army and elaborated on the normal troops.
That, of course, is my personal opinion, and others may well see it differently. In my own time and for our own grasslands campaign, I tended to create house-rule rank and file troops that "blended in" with the rest of the army, so my preference goes along those lines. These are some of the troops I shook from my sleeve:
Firstborn Outrider (mounted crossbowman)
Firstborn Light Horse (mounted swordsman knights in warbands)
Firstborn Thane (mounted swordsman with high Leadership stat)
Firstborn City Militia (basically armed citizens defending their homes, led by an Iron Guardsman with a Straightsword and shield)
Blackblood Myrmadon Catapult (firing alchemical fire from the back of two Myrmadons yoked together)
Blackblood Orc Kutara Raiders (light Kutara cavalry with scimitars and composite bows, fighting in warbands)
Blackblood Ogre Caravan Master (to have something that goes with the Orc Caravan Guards. He is lightly armoured and has a falchion)
Blackblood Orc slavers (light troops with nets and spears who guard slave trains)
Blackblood Goblin Pathfinder (armed with a scimitar and a shortbow, attached to an unit to give it the Outmaneuver special ability and the correct ability pertaining to the terrain, e.g. Ice Warrior in the Wildlands)
(... and the famous Lesser Goblin Rabble from Leviathan, so that even the Goblins have someone to look down their noses at.)
Elven Ranger (marksman with a bow and a two-handed sword)
Elven Lesser Dragonbane cavalry (poorer second sons of the nobility, riding the runts of Dragonbane egg-clutches. They are armed with oval shields and longswords and fight in warbands)
Elven Trade Guard (longsword and buckler armed light troops that escort caravans, guard sky-barges and police trade in the Elven harbours)
Elven Trade Master (an individual that oversees trade and commands caravans and sky-barges. High leadership, but lightly armed and armoured)
Emerald Guard (the Emerald House´s elite guard, basically souped-up Elven spearmen sporting longbows)
Initiates of the Flame (apprentice Keepers fighting with paired Sun-Disc daggers)
Matron of the Flame (a high-ranking Keeper with two burning swords)
Masked Knights (warbands of spear-armed retainers supporting the Warriors of the Golden Mask, immune to fire-based attacks)
... you get the picture. In all cases, it was the existing range of "normal" soldiers that inspired the units. None of them needed the introduction of new ideas, and most are armed with already existing weapons. I would have preferred something along those lines: basically new versions of the usual troops that nonetheless add an element of variety to the campaign.
The Cyclops was a step in the right direction, especially because he can be presented as a distant relative of the standard Blackblood races (in much the same way that the Trolls are). Paint him with dark skin and a red eye, give him a long black Mongol moustache and topknot, maybe dress him up in pantaloons and a sash, and he fits in perfectly as an Ogre´s dumb big brother. I didn´t playtest him yet, so I cannot say anything about the stats and points cost, though.
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No offense taken!! I wanted to stat out some cool models, and get some honest feedback.
I like your ideas better for Chronopia. I'll show these to Thom.
He's trying to install the Dragon voice software in his computer to push things forward in his wiki. I need to find out how much will be new units for Warzone, and Chronopia, as we saw in the Cerulean Mists previews. I understand the unreleased stuff for Warzone like the sourcebooks is what people want.
Thom works full time as an accountant, so he's not always available. Even with the two of us and Cauldron Born, that's part time, and you see how fast we've gone--glacier speed. We hope to have more generic models in the store, maybe around Christmas, but I make no predictions.
I understand people's love of the games, and I'll try to keep prying more out of Thom, and keep the lights on here.
Those troop suggestions you have are fantastic, Owl!!
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Aw, thanks! I have been playing Chronopia campaigns since it first became possible to get one´s hands on a rulebook in Germany. There´s still half a ton of paperwork stuff lying around in my home we made up for those campaigns. If you feel that anything of that stuff could be of use to you, just shoot me a line, and I´ll do some rummaging.
The problem with the units I mentioned above would be to find proxy miniatures (so your concept of drawing up stats for existing miniatures may well prove to be the better way!). Some can be created from existing miniatures with a bit of tweaking (I remember that my friend Björn made up his Light Horse warband from the upper bodies of Firstborn Swordsmen and G*m*s W*rksh*p(tm) legs and plastic horses (and sculpting the cloaks was our first horrendous exercise in the use of Green Stuff). I cut the halberds from militia and equipped them with swords (which broke off constantly) and domed brass buttons (for the bucklers) to get Trade Guards for my Emerald House. Both looked horrible even after we painted them. :P
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Got an address for the Wiki and the Obsidian Portal?
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Got an address for the Wiki and the Obsidian Portal?
Trust me, as soon as I do, I will tell everyone. I've been waiting too.
As for the units, I went with models that were available, but maybe we should produce some generic models and then point cost them? ;)
Many have lost patience and given up waiting, and I don't blame them. I'm doing what little I can.
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I think the members of the forum will be eager to search the internet, cons, etc. to find models fitting to the units.
Maybe there will be even people around to mold fitting models ;-) or to kickstart a new line of models.
Anyway I would recommend to follow a two-pronged strategy.
If you find fitting models do not hesitate to let them enter the Chronopia universe and create new models which are perfect fitting into the Chronopia universe regardless if you have proxies or not.
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Sounds like sage advice. I would add that one could start with models that could be more or less easily converted from existing ranges just by changing a few bits (like the Elven Trade Guard from Militia).
If one of the moulding artists reads this, I might suggest something:
The most characteristic and defining parts of miniatures – heads, shields, shoulder pads and weapons – are at the same time those which appear on nearly all miniatures of the same range. If someone could mould a sprue containing, say, a Firstborn Knight´s helmet, round shield, straightsword and shoulder pads (and maybe add a crenellated axe blade for good measure), players could use this on models from other ranges, with a wee bit of sawing, gluing and greenstuffing, to create a wide range of Firstborn models: from City Militia through Light Horse to Mounted Repulsar Knights. Same with Elves, Devout or Blackbloods. Note how all Elves have the same style hood and gorget, and most Blackbloods carry spiked round Saracen-style shields?
I might also open a new thread showcasing those house-rule units I´ve already done stats on – if it´s OK with you.
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Share your units by all means. Your ideas on the sprues for the models is brilliant as well.
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Will do! And thanks.