Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: Pax on June 25, 2009, 06:32:28 AM
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This been discussed on the forums before after doing some searching but I can not figure out which ruling is the correct one?
http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=5172.msg37028#msg37028
Here it's stated that going into MP do not block LoS.
http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=170.msg9435#msg9435
Here it's stated it do.
I was originally looking into the MP rules for if the -2RC for shooting at a model in MP stacks with cover or not. If standing behind a waist high cover with a model is the same as being in MP behind said object or if this actually blocks the LoS? Perhaps going into base to base contact with a cover counts as a automatic MP?
The discussion on the FAQ post never concluded on a finish from what I can see so asking if there ever was one?
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Good question. Honestly I don't know but I would like to know the answer, too :D
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As I see it you get only the highest possible Bonus or to say malus for the attacking unit.
And MP doesn´t block LOS.
The model is supposed to crawl or do anything to cover himself or "all-possible-to-not get shot", but it can still be seen to a part.
You get the bonus of being able to shoot over them from second line without them blocking your LOS to the target.
What would add I think is smoke an guerilla training.
Stated that they add to any other modifier.
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You get the bonus of being able to shoot over them from second line without them blocking your LOS to the target.
Yes,thats how we play it. But I cannot find it anywhere in the rulebook (as so often)
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You get the bonus of being able to shoot over them from second line without them blocking your LOS to the target.
Yes,thats how we play it. But I cannot find it anywhere in the rulebook (as so often)
Per the FAQ
Page 53: Ranged Combat Targeting
Q: How much larger must a model be to shoot over another model? How much higher must one
model be to shoot over another?
A: A Model must be at least two sizes larger than the model in front of them in order to fire over them.
The exception is models who are MP. Models behind models who are MP may fire over them if
they are at least the same size.
The amount of elevation needed to hit a target is determined by the one inch firing lane rule. If the
model on the elevation can draw LOS to the chest of the target, and still clear the intervening
models by one inch or more (either vertical or horizontal), the shot is legal. The best way to judge
this is to draw a string between the two models and look at the clearance. If that isn’t definitive, roll
a peacemaker.
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As I see it you get only the highest possible Bonus or to say malus for the attacking unit.
And MP doesn´t block LOS.
The model is supposed to crawl or do anything to cover himself or "all-possible-to-not get shot", but it can still be seen to a part.
You get the bonus of being able to shoot over them from second line without them blocking your LOS to the target.
What would add I think is smoke an guerilla training.
Stated that they add to any other modifier.
From what I understand if you are MP behind hard or soft cover the bonuses do not stack and you can be shot at.
If you are concealed behind cover you can still be spotted.
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From what I understand if you are MP behind hard or soft cover the bonuses do not stack and you can be shot at.
If you are concealed behind cover you can still be spotted.
Yes and yes (if you get a LOS).
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From what I understand if you are MP behind hard or soft cover the bonuses do not stack and you can be shot at.
If you are concealed behind cover you can still be spotted.
Yes and yes (if you get a LOS).
Exactly. You still have to draw LOS. Communication is key here. "I am going behind this hard cover on my first action, firing, then going to MP. It will take me another action to pop up and shoot at you."
I think I would not be ablot to shott at the model after his actions are complete (unless I can draw LOS to the model).
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So you would support that going into MP behind a cover would be able to break LOS?
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So you would support that going into MP behind a cover would be able to break LOS?
I wouldn´t.
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Common sense. It would if you cannot draw LOS to the model.
Being able to draw LOS to the model allows you to shoot at it (and be shot at) normally (modifyers of course). Again communication is key here. If you are going behind hard cover and going to MP, and stating what you are doing, communicate that to your opponent.
Agreeing about actions during gameplsy is key in this case.
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The confusion, here, in my opinion, is one of whether the definition matches the intent.
MP, in and of itself, does not block LOS. Cover, in and of itself, does not block LOS.
If a SZ 2 model is behind Cover that would block LOS for a SZ 1 model, and choose to assume a minimized presence (MP), then the model may be considered to be behind Cover that blocks LOS. Note, however, that if LOS is blocked to this model, it is blocked from this model as well; in other words, if no model can shoot it, then it may not shoot at any other model. Common sense is, definitely, the key, here.
Please, let me know if this clarifies the issue.
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Does it mean that the model can choose if it can shoot and get shot or if it will hide and can not shoot and get shot?
Or is it allways blocked by the cover?
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The confusion, here, in my opinion, is one of whether the definition matches the intent.
MP, in and of itself, does not block LOS. Cover, in and of itself, does not block LOS.
If a SZ 2 model is behind Cover that would block LOS for a SZ 1 model, and choose to assume a minimized presence (MP), then the model may be considered to be behind Cover that blocks LOS. Note, however, that if LOS is blocked to this model, it is blocked from this model as well; in other words, if no model can shoot it, then it may not shoot at any other model. Common sense is, definitely, the key, here.
Please, let me know if this clarifies the issue.
This certainly is what I was looking for, combining the two, cover and MP, could possibly break line of sight (when everyone on the game table approves of it). And yes you can't shot since your own LOS is also broken. You don't see them and they don't see you.
This means that you can play your troops crawling along a trench line, behind destroyed buildings, etc in a somewhat safe manner. Once you go out of MP though, you will be able to shot and be shot at as normal. It's a very common way to fight in trench battles among other things. :)
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Does it mean that the model can choose if it can shoot and get shot or if it will hide and can not shoot and get shot?
Or is it allways blocked by the cover?
Common Sense - talk to your opponent, and let him know your intent. Remember, if the model goes MP, and LOS is blocked, the model will have to spend an Action to see over the cover before it can spend an Action to perform an attack.
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Per Rulebook definition MP does not block line of side.
Because no where is mentioned, that the size of the model changes by going into MP.
Ok, maybe they just forgott it.
So you have the option to play with common sense and say that going into MP behind a small wall does block LOS or
You play strict to the rulebook (or maybe because you hate "pop out and shot" tactics) and play that MP does not change the status of LOS.
It is your choice. I prefer that going into MP does not block LOS because I hate this "duck dancing" and I don't think it is against the rules.
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Funn you say that....
That duck-dancing was your invention.... ;)
Remember that Banshee hero of yours...
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Per Rulebook definition MP does not block line of side.
Because no where is mentioned, that the size of the model changes by going into MP.
Ok, maybe they just forgott it.
So you have the option to play with common sense and say that going into MP behind a small wall does block LOS or
You play strict to the rulebook (or maybe because you hate "pop out and shot" tactics) and play that MP does not change the status of LOS.
It is your choice. I prefer that going into MP does not block LOS because I hate this "duck dancing" and I don't think it is against the rules.
No there is no real rule written that say that MP decreases a units size. But there is written on page 41 that being in MP means the unit is close to the ground. As well you can only crawl while in MP and on page 46 it describes crawling as a option to "move along a short wall to avoid enemy fire". Along with the rule that a friendly model standing next to a model in MP will be able to shot trough it since it's not standing in the way when in MP.
But yes Common sense wins the day of this. What I sought was some advice and maybe conclusion on it and that is what I got. I'm writing a translation of the rules for UWZ in Swedish to keep track on what rules apply in what situation without the fluff and easier discussions in our gaming group. Gotta love to open a can of worms sometimes. :D
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The confusion, here, in my opinion, is one of whether the definition matches the intent.
MP, in and of itself, does not block LOS. Cover, in and of itself, does not block LOS.
If a SZ 2 model is behind Cover that would block LOS for a SZ 1 model, and choose to assume a minimized presence (MP), then the model may be considered to be behind Cover that blocks LOS. Note, however, that if LOS is blocked to this model, it is blocked from this model as well; in other words, if no model can shoot it, then it may not shoot at any other model. Common sense is, definitely, the key, here.
Please, let me know if this clarifies the issue.
Ehm, where in the rules do you find this? If my memory serves me right there is no definition of cover in relation to model size or that MP would reduce you to a smaller size.
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Funn you say that....
That duck-dancing was your invention.... ;)
Remember that Banshee hero of yours...
Whoa, that was back at the beginning of first edition. With this mega super monster heros.
And a duck dancing Banshee Hero with a Nimrod was the only answer to the Pilgrim Executioner
or Pretorion Stalker Squads with Nazgaroth.
No there is no real rule written that say that MP decreases a units size. But there is written on page 41 that being in MP means the unit is close to the ground. As well you can only crawl while in MP and on page 46 it describes crawling as a option to "move along a short wall to avoid enemy fire". Along with the rule that a friendly model standing next to a model in MP will be able to shot trough it since it's not standing in the way when in MP.
As you say it. There is no rule. If I take all the fluff and generell explenations in the rulebook as rules, I could interpretate a loooooooot of rules.
For a rule there must be a explicit line where it says: "By going into MP the size of the model is halved"
or "by going into MP obstacles with a size halve of the model size are blocking LOS" or somethig like that.
You cannot make rules from fluff or generell decriptions. Ok, you can, but than it is a house rule.
There are so much rules which you could ad according to "common sense".
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At page 46 i noticed:
Crawling:
Soldiers in MP have the option to move, but the movement is slow and awkward. Sometimes a soldier may need to move along a short wall to avoid enemy fire[..]
Wouldn't this example lead to the conclusion that the manual was written with the "MP breaks LOS" rule in mind?
Yes, yes, yes, yes. This is what I have been saying but it has either fallen on deaf ears or those who wish to debate this. I was told by Da Man himself at Origins 2004, before running the national tourney, that if a model is in MP behind cover that is at least half of its size in inches (1 inch for a size two, 1 and 1/2 inch for a size 3, 2 inches for a size 4 etc) then the model is out of LOS.
This one of the mentioned answers linked in the beginning of this topic that I found while searching around and among the reasons why I asked it all in the beginning. :)
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At page 46 i noticed:
Crawling:
Sometimes a soldier may need to move along a short wall to avoid enemy fire[..]
This one of the mentioned answers linked in the beginning of this topic that I found while searching around and among the reasons why I asked it all in the beginning. :)
You use that to create a rule?
Oh fine. I make another rule:
Rulebook Page 152 "Since Capitol is the largest of the Corporations size and strength of its forces reflect this."
So I would say Capitol gets 150% of Points for their fighting Force in a Warzone battle.
Common Sense would say, yes if they are the largest andd strongest Corporation, why not?
You have the rulebook entry on page 152 and no where in the rulebook does it say, that it isn't so.
You know what I mean? ;)
You must have to seperate from explicit rules and from generel descriptions, at least if you are talking about "official" rules.
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Hey Boys...calm down.
let the heat flow away and breathe, breathe breathe...
There actually is a ruling mentioning cover in relation to the figs, but I don´t want to open that box of pandora now.
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lol. I'm calm. What I was referring to was not the first section but the second.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. This is what I have been saying but it has either fallen on deaf ears or those who wish to debate this. I was told by Da Man himself at Origins 2004, before running the national tourney, that if a model is in MP behind cover that is at least half of its size in inches (1 inch for a size two, 1 and 1/2 inch for a size 3, 2 inches for a size 4 etc) then the model is out of LOS.
This is why I asked since Stalker had been told that was the rule during a tournament. Either way dmcgee1 already given me a answer I can work with. Not here trying to make up rules, just understand what others already said.
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Hey Enker
For the Trench War Szenario just make special ruling then you can make sure nobody drives you nuts ;) ;D
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Communication is key here.
Yes you are correct. MP and cover do not block LOS.
A quick, hey I am going to MP behind cover and intend to get out of sight from so and so and it will take me at least an action to pop up to shoot, and agreement from the other player does.
The best (and fastest) games I have ever played were when the rules we rarely if ever discussed.
Throughout the entire game pretty much all that was said was:
Looks close enough to me.
If you shoot at MR, I will return fire at MR.
I think this is what should happen, it makes sense, agree?
I think it should be -2 for cover here agree?
I think Walkers do not get a penalty, right?
Shoot, I forgot envoromental role, here is the role now.
I think I will need to take a leadership roll now since he is down to half of his wounds.
I can go on and on.
BTW, thanks Dave, Josh, Dodger, Archer and Phil for the great games we have played over the years.
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I'm calm, too.
I just wanted to explain in which way you have to read the rules.
The Capitol example is a little bit hyped, but not wrong by its meaning.
Of course conversation is the best thing to make an agreement, but sometimes it dont work
and you cant debate everthing in game. And the peacemaker role is not realy helping anyone.
If ingame conversation and peacemaker would be the best thing we wouldnt need this forum here.
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To clarify it. I think the term of going in MP reduce the size is not correct. The term would be it reduced maybe the height of a model.
Size is the overall body of the model and not only the height. If the size would change we would have to think about the changes of size parameters like size difference during RC.
If you lay down. Your size is still the same. As an example the Fenris bike has the same height like the Necromower but the bike is much longer. So the Fenris bike has size 4 the Necromower has size 3.
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The confusion, here, in my opinion, is one of whether the definition matches the intent.
MP, in and of itself, does not block LOS. Cover, in and of itself, does not block LOS.
If a SZ 2 model is behind Cover that would block LOS for a SZ 1 model, and choose to assume a minimized presence (MP), then the model may be considered to be behind Cover that blocks LOS. Note, however, that if LOS is blocked to this model, it is blocked from this model as well; in other words, if no model can shoot it, then it may not shoot at any other model. Common sense is, definitely, the key, here.
Please, let me know if this clarifies the issue.
Ehm, where in the rules do you find this? If my memory serves me right there is no definition of cover in relation to model size or that MP would reduce you to a smaller size.
I am not quoting any rule, Coil. I am presenting common sense as derived from the rules. If one is MP, or "close to the ground," as one must be to crawl, then one should, for height purposes, be considered to be of lower stature. That said, common sense says that you can, indeed, hide behind cover that would block LOS. Again, this demands communication of intent between the players.
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The table on page 46 indicates a possible change of height. A model must start to crawl to get under a space of the half size.
Of course the models size stays the same only the height will change.
This explanes why it would be possible to shoot over a model in MP.
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Does it mean that the model can choose if it can shoot and get shot or if it will hide and can not shoot and get shot?
Or is it allways blocked by the cover?
Common Sense - talk to your opponent, and let him know your intent. Remember, if the model goes MP, and LOS is blocked, the model will have to spend an Action to see over the cover before it can spend an Action to perform an attack.
This is the answer.
Does it need to be clarified, further?