Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Talaminiatures => General Discussions => Topic started by: raia on January 08, 2006, 11:44:54 PM
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I looked at EE prices of new models http://www.excelsiorentertainment.com/News.asp, and I disbelieve my eyes! What a heavy prices for Luteran cavalry (#
Inheritor Cavalry Pack (2) EXE-40508 R = 22$
#
Inheritor Heavy Cavalry (1) EXE-40510 M = 14$
)!
Why it is so expensive?
How can EE sell these models without right trade policies?
Look at http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=List_Models&code=300944&orignav=13 GAMES WORKSHOP pages at theirs HQ models on mounts!!! Some HQ have the same price as EE, but they are more precious and with high quality support for games and models ( I mean web pages, more pics, more informations and so on... )
Have the EE Cavalry has a metal mounts models perhaps? Why? I dont know, because informations on this web are "nothing" (neither pictures nor text)).
Please explain it! Thanx
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I can confirm that the Heavy Cavalry are metal models, as all EE models by the way. Only the troops from the second edition army box set were made out of plastic, and all stocks that remain are those made in the Target days.
Regarding the price, you are however right to point out the fact that there is a growing convergence of EE prices toward GW's.
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Reaper had an excellent breakdown in last year's catalogue of why prices in the industry are rising. Ironically it has to do with the price of tin in China. Go figure.
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AS for the price of these models, they are both multi-part for the riders and are all metal for the horses, If you lok at the priceing fo the Firstborn mounts and SOK mounts you will see the price are the same and those price have only increase pennies other the last few years.
As for GW try not to draw comparisions. Or mnts our on metal solid mounts and they have plastic 2 parts. So price wise we are no where near what they are.
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Reaper had an excellent breakdown in last year's catalogue of why prices in the industry are rising. Ironically it has to do with the price of tin in China. Go figure.
Not ironic - simple supply and demand economics. If I understand correctly, China's not letting enough of the metal out of the country to keep the price stable, therefore, it has risen.
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Tin is sold at the world market and since the price has risen we can draw the conclusion that demand is higher than supply which drives up the price until supply equals demand and we reach equilibrium again.
It could be due to a general rise in demand for tin (which is used for soldering as well for example) or it could be that the suppliers are having production problems.
/The Economist :)
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I think they still in a reasonable price segment for the good qualitiy products they have. At least they dont try to convince me to buy plastic soldiers ^^.
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NO PLASTICS!
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Honestly, I wouldn't mind plastic minis. While I like the new metal scupts, I think a set of plastics for each army would be cool. (I also don't know how much shifting over to plastics would cost, so that could just be a pipe dream)
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I think this kind of discussion has been on the old forums, too. If I remember right, it is easier and cheaper to cast metal minis... I think the molds for plastics have to be another quality and are more expensive...hot plastic sticks to nearly everything... ;)
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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I dont know. Behind my house is factory that works with plastics. One model from this plants is cheaper then 1,- CZE, (25,-CZE is 1$).
How can a metal models be cheaper than plastic then ?
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The production costs of creating the molds for the figures. From what I understand (and im not a pro on plastic figure molding) is that is an entirely different process. the injection molding and the chemicles used is a lot different and I believe a lot more expensive.
When molding a metal figure from either an existion metal or a green sculpt the process is pretty much as follows.
Model is taken and molded in a master mold. ( rubber disc about 10 or so inches in circumferance) there usually is more then one figure typein the mold Once this mold is make it is cast up about 15 to 20 times to give us production masters. We then mold the production masters into a new mold. This mold will contain anywhere from 5-12 figures depending on size.
This mold when completed (which takes about 2 hours to properly cook and melt the mold rubber to form around the mini) is then cut to give the vents for proper metal pouring. once this is done we begin consumer production of the figure.
I believe the injection molding is dont entirely different and requires a greater number of machines time and materials.
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The plastics vs metal discussion comes up every once in a while on forums for almost all games. I do not know the exact numbers but plastics molds are a LOT more costly to make (as in add a number of 0s at the end). The plastic raw material is cheaper than metal though so if you are producing huge numbers it evens out.
The reason GW can use plastic is that they sell a whole lot more than all the other companies combined and even for them plastics is not always the best option.
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@ raia
One shouldnt make the mistake to confuse plastik made highdetailed Miniatures with Toy Soldiers for kids (like cowboys and knights etc.) The molds for gaming plastic miniatures of a certain qualitiy are far more expensive than metal ones, but thats already been said. ;D
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I dont know. Behind my house is factory that works with plastics. One model from this plants is cheaper then 1,- CZE, (25,-CZE is 1$).
How can a metal models be cheaper than plastic then ?
When one is comparing straight currency, it is okay to translate one unit to another. However, the economics of making a figure in the economy of one country, shipping to another, and then paying taxes, tariffs or other "balances," one can, hardly, gauge one to another.
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I've read somewhere that for the cost of the chemicals, equipment, and molds for plastic minis, one can produce up to 6 metal minis for the same cost.
For a large company (like say, for example, a certain British one), this isn't a problem because 1.) they have a larger customer base, but also 2.) because they have slowly converting their product lines to plastic for the last 10 years. It has only been in the last 5 years that they have been radically changing their products from metal to plastic.
Now how do the Brits make up the cost of this conversion? Well, by their prices of course. Now, a 10 man plastic squad for just about any force for 40K comes out to about $35 American. They have been slowly increasing their prices for about the last 7 years in preparation for this. Now, for a beautiful army of entirely plastic minis will cost about $400 American (for a tournament army of 1750 pts).
Now, maybe I am in the minority here, but I prefer metal minis. I prefer them because they are more durable (I have 2 kids, ages 4 and 2), and they hold onto paint a lot better than plastics. When I played 40K exclusively, it would burn me up to have to pay those costs for plastic minis, while I could justify the cost for metal ones.
Thanks for listening to my rant...I'll pass the soapbox to others now.
B.
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The cost of plastic minis mass-produced by most of the miniature producing companies is completely unjustified. Production costs are minimal (on mass scale) - you can see that by looking at plastic scale models by companies such as Italeri - a plastic set for LAV-25 costs roughly 10 dollars (here, in Europe). It uses more (and better) plastic, more complicated moulds etc. than any 40k squad box, yet they're selling it for 3.5 time less than the squad box (and they still have profit). Most of the miniature price is overhead and profit of the gaming company, as well as the store that's selling it. The prices are so high, because gamers are willing to pay them, they have little to do with actual manufacturing costs.
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I've read somewhere that for the cost of the chemicals, equipment, and molds for plastic minis, one can produce up to 6 metal minis for the same cost.
Why on earth would someone produce plastic minis if they were 6 times more expensive than metal? It just does not make sense.
The cost of plastic minis mass-produced by most of the miniature producing companies is completely unjustified.
The marginal cost of producing one plastic mini may be minimal but in order to produce that one mini you have to invest a lot into equipment, molds etc not to mention sculpting and design. If you were to set the price at the level of the marginal cost of production you wouldn't get your money back on what you've spent on design and other costs.
Most of the miniature price is overhead and profit of the gaming company, as well as the store that's selling it. The prices are so high, because gamers are willing to pay them, they have little to do with actual manufacturing costs.
Price is based on what the customer is willing to pay (as it should be). Manufacturers and stores have to get their other costs covered as well otherwise they will not be able to stay in business.
Now on to a short example (I am making all of these numbers up as I have no idea what the actual numbers are).
Plastic vs Metal minis
Price: Both minis are priced at $5.
Fixed costs
Sculpting:
Metal $500
Plastic $500
Molds:
Metal $500
Plastic $10 000
Production costs (marginal costs)
Material and labour cost of producing one mini:
Metal $1
Plastic $0.01
In order to break even the metal model has to sell at least 250 copies. The break even point for the plastic model is 2143 copies. If we assume that the costs of making the molds for plastics are even higher perhaps 100 000 then it has to sell over 20 000 units in order to recoup the investment.
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I searched a bit through the net ^^
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_model)
While injection-molding is the predominant manufacturing process for plastic models, the high costs of equipment and making molds make it unsuitable for lower-yield production. Thus, models of minor and obscure subjects are often manufactured using alternative processes. Vacuum forming is popular for aircraft models, though assembly is more difficult than for injection-molded kits. Resin-casting, popular with smaller manufacturers, particularly 'after-market' firms (but also producers of full kits) yields a greater degree of detail moulded in situ, but as the moulds used don't last as long, the price of such kits is considerably higher. In recent times, the latest releases from major manufacturers offer unprecedented detail that is a match for the finest resin kits, often including high-quality mixed-media (photo-etched brass, turned aluminium) parts.
So as Coil already said its a question of how much one can sell of a Mini, as the break even point is harder to reach, ie selling stuff wich is more expensive in production to lower prices. Guess why GW wants so much money for their toy soldiers^^ (if they had'nt developed their prices slowly towards it, they most likely wouldnt be able to use plastic as well)
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Let's take a look at the numbers from another point of view:
fixed costs:
sculpting 2 sprues of multipart miniatures (the GW way): $5K - i am also making up this number
injection mold for each sprue: $30K (so 60K total) - this is based research I've made some time ago
production costs:
per sprue: $0.5 - guessing this one. Includes printing a box.
If you sell each box squad (containing 2 sprues - Space Marines for example) for $20, you need to sell 3421 boxes to cover your expenses (not counting the overhead for running business, taxes etc). If the box contains 4 sprues (Imperial Guard, Tyranids), you have to sell 3611 boxes. That is roughly 1K guys playing the army you've made the models for, each buying between 3 and 4 boxes (a realistic estimate, I think). From large company's point of view, with tens of thousands of people playing each army it is not a problem. An additional benefit of using injection molding is the fact, that metal molds used in this process are much more durable than molds used in metal casting - you do not need to replace them for years.
The cost of making a mold is closer to 30-40K$ than 100K$, at least for miniatures (I've done some "asking around" and internet research some time ago, the cost of mold depends more on the size of the part than on the level of detail required).
Of course for a small company there's no point in investing in production of plastic minis.
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And question is:
How many model types you can make with one sprue and with one model?
If company wants capture costumers then you must produce min 10 metalic models. And now, can you compare prices for metal and plastic models?
Plastic models are good for customers, who wants "colourful" army (Im this costumer type). Yes, I love metal models, it is good feeling take them in hand ;) , but I dont want 3 types of Disciples of my 30 Disciples army?!
Dont tell me that Warzone has less than 15k players on the world.
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Actually I'd argue that right now Warzone does have less than 15K players in the world. I'm not saying that may not inprove but it is a niche game in a niche market right now. Hinted at things like a movie and the return of SoTC (with movie tie-in) could bolster those numbers but the reason EE does fine with it's limited number of people is the (so far) limited demand. Now of course this is all speculation and Coil can prove me right or wrong with no aplogies necessary for either side, but I'm not seeing signs of humongous figure movement just yet.
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I can say from conversation that the idea of plastics have come up. but the problem is there are certain figures that no one buts or is bought in a limited quanty. (personalities, ect.) It would be a major major loss to create plastics molds for all figures in line. This would then leave us with a massive amount of overhead and excess stock. For company our size it is not economical for GW. Im sure it is. They have some beautiful minis, but look at it.. You get a 10 pack of metal minis form us for 25$, you get a 5 pack of minis form them for nearly 40 or so.
Rule book is that same thing, one book with all armies for us for 50$.
Faction books All and rulle book come to 50$ for rulebook, 20$ chaos codex, 20$ daemonhunters, 15$ dark eldar, 15$ eldar, 20$ IG, 20$ necrons, 15$ orcs, 20$ space marine, space wolves, $10 dark angels, $10 blood angels, $20 tau, 20$ tyranids, 20$ witch hunters.
So for the rulebook, and all factions it would cost.....$285
OUCH.
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How much will it cost to replace your disgraced Firstborn army after their upcoming smackdown/debacle? ;)
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Coil can prove me right or wrong
I have absolutely no idea how many current players there are nor do I have any idea how many minis EE sells (since I am not an EE employee). :)
One figure I do know is that Paradox Entertainment write in their annual report that over 150 000 games of Warzone have been sold worldwide. They do not give any timeperiod for that or what they mean by "games".
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I can say from conversation that the idea of plastics have come up. but the problem is there are certain figures that no one buts or is bought in a limited quanty. (personalities, ect.) It would be a major major loss to create plastics molds for all figures in line. This would then leave us with a massive amount of overhead and excess stock. For company our size it is not economical for GW. Im sure it is. They have some beautiful minis, but look at it.. You get a 10 pack of metal minis form us for 25$, you get a 5 pack of minis form them for nearly 40 or so.
Rule book is that same thing, one book with all armies for us for 50$.
Faction books All and rulle book come to 50$ for rulebook, 20$ chaos codex, 20$ daemonhunters, 15$ dark eldar, 15$ eldar, 20$ IG, 20$ necrons, 15$ orcs, 20$ space marine, space wolves, $10 dark angels, $10 blood angels, $20 tau, 20$ tyranids, 20$ witch hunters.
So for the rulebook, and all factions it would cost.....$285
OUCH.
Yes, It is true. But these books are sold with many new scatches (pics), information about modeling, painting and for main - fluff that drags new players and old players inspire! And with theirs box model is same. Very good quality, more pictures and so on....
And for your information: I spend 2000$ for WH40K. I have two huge armies and many fluff books. I love this world. I love Mutant Chronicles fluff too, but I cannot get them anywhere!
Why cannot you made individuals by metal and common (doom)troopers by plastic? (as Imperial Regulars and Bauhaus forces).
Why cannot you made more games systems as e.g. Rackham with their Confrontation, Ragnarock and Hybrid?
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Why cannot you made more games systems as e.g. Rackham with their Confrontation, Ragnarock and Hybrid?
I would like to see a Modern skirmish game using the UWZ rules. :)
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Why cannot you made more games systems as e.g. Rackham with their Confrontation, Ragnarock and Hybrid?
Because all good things need lots of time ;)
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I have literally tons of metal and plastic minis but despite the weight (and X-ray) issue I like metal better. ;)
Pastic: Despite all the the advancement Excelsior made - I still think the production costs for plastic is still not justified. Bigger customer base would be needed IMHO (but I would love to be wrong in this issue). If the movie and other projects start to bring in enough money - I would really like to see basic troops in plastic. I`m statisfied with the Imperial and Bauhaus grunts. But it is a hard decision Thom and the crew has to make.
Variety for basic troop is a must. Not everyone is good at converting. :(
Just my 2 cents.
Greetings,
Catinator
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Good point but look how much variation you were able to get with the original four-packs of basic troopies. Four poses, close enough to be the same unit but different enought that they produced a nice variation when placed together in a large formation. Now if you are the type whom every figure has to be a distinct individual (and I'm not knocking this at all) then plastics are they way to go. Even then you are going to be limited-as fantasatic as the Ducal Militia and Imperial Regular sculpts are, there are only so many ways to fit them together. I think it is a long way off before we can expect to see the GW Space Marine Infinite Pose style figs come this way. In fact I think plastics too early can be bad. As good as the SOTC sculps were/are, I would not want an entire force like that (look at the Robogear troop figs [not the robots] for examples of plastics that have nowhere to go).
Besides, EE's metal figs are still cheaper than GW's plastics for the most part. Good thing I bought all my Space Marines in the 90's.
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This discussion is all basically moot. If EE had the resources to drop on multiple plastic molds they would already have several sculpters, mold makers and cutters on the payroll and would be pumping out new figs by the dozens. Plastics aren't likely to happen unless someone wins the lottery. ;)
I'd bet there were more than 15K WZ fans worldwide. however, the number of active fans who are playing UWZ is likely a fraction of that. Otherwise, the demand for Wz figs would be such that a large number of stores worldwide would be stocking the line.
I love the universe. I have just picked up around 400 more figs on the secondary market. I'd really like to see the new Tribes Cav.
Thanks,
John
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One thing forgoten in the plastic vs metal discusion is the topic of repainting.
For me i have always found it easier to remove the paint from the metals and repaint them then it was for the plastics. For the plastics it has been frustraiting at best , nigh impossible at worst. so given the choice ( after econcomic considerations) i would choose metal almost everytime, because you can change your mind and color sceeme easily at a latter point.
( it also doesnt hurt that when i started to get into the warzone stuff most of their metals were half the cost of other game companies' plastics)
Dr jack t ripper