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Chronopia => Game Questions => Topic started by: DogOWar on April 26, 2008, 05:48:02 AM

Title: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: DogOWar on April 26, 2008, 05:48:02 AM
Both of these models have the term "Always Braced" in their profiles.  My question is what exactly does that mean?  Do these models always get to attack any incoming charge?  What if they have no actions left?  I know this was discussed before concerning something else, but would like to clear it up.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Dragon62 on April 26, 2008, 08:01:29 AM
It means that those models dont need to use a wait action they are already braced and if charged still get to attack 1st even with no actions left that turn.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: joshuaslater on April 28, 2008, 06:58:33 AM
My Impaler virtually took out a squad of Crimson Blade goblins this way.  We argued over it, but, by the book, permanently braced means any incoming attack. 
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: DogOWar on April 28, 2008, 01:55:19 PM
Well thats good to hear.  Thats the way I took it to be played, just wanted to be sure.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Raga on March 20, 2011, 01:42:37 AM
How about Impaler or Myrmadon being attacked by the ie. Stygian Tree Devil?
Is his first attack (unseen assailant - or something) still intercepted by permanent Brace?

I would appreciate answers from both editions perspective.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Horned Owl on March 21, 2011, 01:17:29 PM
[1st edition] Unseen assailant cannot be countercharged at all, as is the first attack of a Stalking model. I would rule that even permanently braced models are taken unawares.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Raga on March 22, 2011, 12:07:36 AM
Horned Owl:

I'm not so sure here.
The model can use its wait action to brace the incoming attack, they cannot brace if the attacks is not visible.
Impaler and Myrmadon do not have bracing for free (they can brace without wait action) they are braced all the time.

In my opinion the only options are:
a) they intercept all of the attacks even unseen assailants, sneak and back attacks
b) they do not make first strike but they only disable oponents' bonuses for charging
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Horned Owl on March 22, 2011, 06:20:10 AM
I usually try to visualise the action if something like this comes up. (The visual part of a Jackal Scout backstabbing a Myrmadon in its tender parts is probably pretty entertaining.)

If a Tree Devil suddenly drops on the back of one of the spearmen, I donŽt see him bringing that long stick around in time. The same goes (arguably) for charging from Hide or similar attacks. (I fight with swords and polearms as a hobby, and a spear is terribly hard to use once the opponent is too close.)
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Raga on March 22, 2011, 07:52:32 AM
You may be right if the battle was in the jungle / forest, but what about desert or clear battlefield?
I imagine Unseen Assailant a model who sits in a cover for several hours to suprise its victim.
The model must be really lucky to always be in a proper place :P (the rule gives great advantage)

I imagine permanently braced model as in defensive stance to minimise openings for the opponent. 
I agree that he cannot attack but should at least negate charging bonuses.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: joshuaslater on March 22, 2011, 09:08:32 AM
I would argue that the Unseen Assailant or Hidden model would strike first, and the model that is Perma-Braced would then swing back if still alive. 

Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Horned Owl on March 23, 2011, 04:47:14 AM
Raga: If the Unseen Assailant rule provides great advantage to the model it applied to (which I agree to), the Perma-Brace rule for Myrmadons is even harder on your enemy. Most times, when IŽm fielding more than one Goblin Myrmadon, IŽll voluntary tone that option down so that the Spearmen are automatically braced only against the first charge that turn from their side of the Myrmadon. As it is, JoshuaŽs suggestion sounds like a good compromise to me.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Raga on March 23, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
Perma-Braced models are still a mystery to me. I don't want to play with the rules that: I don't understand or are not logical.

Let's make a quick summary.

Unseen Assailant and Attack from hidden status override Perma-Braced models - they get full bonuses for charging.
Perma-Braced and Waiting models may strike back if they survive - standard CC attack.

Am I correct?
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: joshuaslater on March 23, 2011, 11:30:17 AM
You can't countercharge a hidden model that is charging you.  We all agree on that.  Brace means essentially always being able to strike first in CC, with unhidden opponents.  I think the rules are only bent by the special abilities.

In this case you have two models bending the rules from special abilities.  The Unseen Assailant always strikes from hidden, but a perma-braced model is technically always holding a wait action, which you use after the surprise of the hidden model striking.

I've seen this come up before when my Wolf Clan Scavenger snuck across the board and struck a waiting Troll Deathseeker on wait, from behind!!  By the rules, a model backstabbed like this has to use it's wait option to turn and attack the model sneaking around.

That's when my Wolf Totem jumped the Troll when it was turned around with no wait counter!!!

It plays very well this way, and I think it's by the rules!!   ::)
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Raga on March 23, 2011, 10:12:51 PM
This topic starts to sound similar to my topic.

In our last battle My waiting Wolf Totem was attacked by Stygian Tree Devil.

According strictly to the rules (as we interpreted them) Tree Devil charged and inflicted a wound, Wolf Totem couldm't do a thing, then the Tree Devil attacked for a second action and missed. Wolf Totem could react only for the second attack that was visible. (Are we wrong?)

If Perma-Braced models are "always waiting" for purposes of Brace special ability, I need one clarication.

Waiting model struck by unsseen assailant or from hidden status can react after first attack, or they have to wait for the second one?
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: joshuaslater on March 24, 2011, 09:03:21 AM
I don't know how first edition handled it, but gaming with me with 2nd edition rules, the Wolf Totem would have to use it's wait action to respond to the attack.  The Tree Devil would have to take its chances with that!!  If it survived, it's next action would be an attack, but not from hidden.

It changes the tactics.  If you want to spring the Tree Devil to remove a wait counter from the Totem, you do it knowing you have troops within charging distance to bring it down.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Raga on March 24, 2011, 11:19:32 AM
In 1st edition model also must defend himself.

Model MAY react to every visible action in his LOS, but MUST react to every model that reaches him in CC.
Can I assume that model MUST strike back to every unsseen assailant charge, charge from hidden status, back attack (can react to such attacks but AFTER armor roll - even if action was not visible or outside his LOS)?

Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: joshuaslater on March 24, 2011, 11:57:37 AM
Yes.  Play it a few times, and it makes sense.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Horned Owl on March 24, 2011, 02:03:48 PM
I love that situation every time it comes up. Distract him with a Goblin, mince him with the Troll. That you get to make that kind of tactical decisions enamoured me of Chronopia in the first place.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Raga on March 24, 2011, 02:27:58 PM
Thanks for the clarification, but I think that it is not enough.

I have tested situation in the Topic again: Dwarven Impaler / Myrmadon attacked by Stygian Tree Devil or a Hiden model.

I keep in mind that:
A waiting model can strike back (if survives an armor roll) every attack that was not able to countercharge.
A waiting model with Brace special ability that is surprised cannot Brace (Brace is a reaction to visible attack), and can only strike back as if he didn't have such ability.

I have come to 2 solutions considering Perma Braced Models:
1) We can interpret Perma braced model as "always waiting" (but it is wrong in my opinion - this model is not waiting, it is Braced) and treat him like above (strike back after an armor roll)
2) Perma braced models should NOT BE ABLE to strike back cause they are not waiting! They should only disable all of charge modifiers

Perma-Brace should work like this:
Model A is already Braced
Model B is making suprise attack (Hide or Unseen Assailant. Back Attack is not taken under consideration cause Perma Braced models "have no back" - Myrmadon is a Cavalry and Impaler can be in back-to-back formation)
Model A cannot intercept not visible attacker - attack is wasted
Model B gets to CC and strikes with no charge modifiers (looking for openings in Braced formation reduces the impact of an attack)
The only way to strike back is if Perma-Braced model was Waiting.

What is your opinion?
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Buzzu on December 07, 2015, 10:45:33 AM
I don't agree with that. I think the correct interpretation is that the asassin strikes with all of his bonuses, than the perma-braced can strike back if it survives. If bracing is an ability that requires a wait action, than a perma-braced model should be treated like a model on wait for attack-counterattack purposes.

Anyway I hate this rule. I charged a goblin mirmadon with four sok heartguards and a leader and a blade maiden champion. I'm speaking of people able to strike down an iron guard warband them alone. They all died before touching the mirmadon. Nonsense.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: kvaerne on December 08, 2015, 01:19:52 PM
It was the first time he faces a Myrmidon goblins, and you've been unlucky.
Next time it will not be so easy for my Blackblood. ;)
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Jr_Boyd on December 12, 2015, 09:03:57 AM
I have read though these rules and it is not clear. I do think braced against every attack is excessive and I do think unseen assailant would supersede the "pera brace" not sure on hidden. I think I would do braced against only the first attack from a war band.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Horned God on December 14, 2015, 07:51:50 PM
You should know that Chronopia sometimes has illogical rock/paper/sissors type logic. I think you found an instance of this. Congratulations.

I think the best solution, besides arguments about interpreting the language is simply to agree on how you want to handle it, especially with YOUR group.

Why can't this simply be a simultaneous attack situation. I know the point of these rules is to advantage one model into getting 'first strike' with one being the defending type (permanently braced) and the other being the attacking type (unseen assailant). Another option exists: let them cancel out and simply put both get to attack. That means the Unseen Assailant gets that 1 action worth of attack and so does the permanently braced unit (which in this case is a dwarf with a weapon and in the case of the goblin myrimadon it is some goblins. Both players would roll their attacks and each player would roll any armor rolls to avoid a Wound.

That means you can attack each other and potentially kill the other, and you can do a lot of missed rolls too. It is a gamble the player makes when deciding the best option for his Unseen Assailant is a Permanently braced unit. Remember the player knows that before making that decision.

Another option is to force the players to roll off an initiative treating each as if they are simultaneous but one will ultimately 'strike first' and thus the winner of that roll attacks first. If that attack misses or the other model survives then of course that model who lost that roll gets to make their attacks and thus can still end up killing/wounding the other model.

I would treat the initiative as a straight D20 roll. Highest Wins.

Ultimately, its your game and if this occurs in a game roll a Peacemaker. Roll a D20 and whomever wins that roll wins that argument FOR THAT GAME ONLY. Then after the game you discuss the solution. If decided and you start a new game that is how it is. No need for any argument. I presented as options. Choose one since ultimately what are the rules but pre-decided ways your going to address an issue in game. If you know it going into the game then you make decisions accordingly and adjust your strategy.

Keep in mind the impaler has that ability because it was limited in attacking anything within 10 inches and thus was permanently in need of defending. The unseen assailant (besides paying for it points) is buying the ability of a sneak attack. As gamers we like die rolls and we like opportunities. I think if it were me. I'd use the 'roll off' method rather than the simultaneous attack. Personally I doubt I'd choose to attack a permanently braced model except maybe that impaler. You see it might just be worth the gamble, but if I hose the die roll I won't bitch and complain as I chose that gamble. Placing the unseen assilant is by its nature a gamble on what you can do. Both are not cheap units so a roll off seems fine with me. (ie rolling an initiative roll).

I get that the rules might not favor that opinion so I'm suggesting this might be a good House Rule/FAQ clarification type of rule that your gaming group clarifies and thus all who play now know how that situation plays out.
Title: Re: Braced: Myrmadon & Impaler
Post by: Buzzu on August 21, 2016, 03:51:21 PM
I've been thinking a lot about this matter. The situation I told, of an entire warband of Heartguards and a Blade Maiden Champion killed by a mirmadon in one turn because they dared to charge it, was something absolutely unacceptable.
Thinking about it, I think that the most realistic use of this ability (permanently braced) is as follows:

You need no wait counter to brace (we all agreed about that) BUT you are one f....in' warrior, not a warband, and neither you are Bruce Lee or a human machine gun, so: you will automatically brace the FIRST attack you'll receive in a turn. If I have a braced model, indeed, and he receives a charge, he strikes first. If a second model charges him, he receives the charge.
So for an Impaler, who has got a dwarf managing the balista and another one protecting-serving, the braced attack will be one; the first. For a goblin mirmadon, we'll have ONE braced reaction for EACH SIDE of the beast. Remember that the two spearmen are covering one side each, with their spears. So, if I charge with two models the same side, the braced reaction should affect the first only. If someone charges on the other side, there will be the second spearman bracing too, for the first attack only.

Playing like that would grant a great advantage to the model, but a realistic play too. You can't destroy a warband all alone if they charge you. It's ridiculous.

Please note that a Stygian priestess has the snakes to protect her. It is stated clearly that the snakes always attack first in EVERY situation she gets into close combat. I think that the possibility to hit ALWAYS EVERY MODEL FIRST should be written in a similar way, while Always braced means they are braced without going on wait, which means they work as every other braced model, except for this condition.

Let me know what you think about it.