Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: Enker on January 03, 2008, 12:06:46 AM
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How is activation for a squad in a transport working?
Lets say you have one squad in a Vermin APC.
Can you move the Vermin APC three actions and then use your squad immediatly with all of their actions?
Or do you have to let your opponent activate one squad after the Vermin finished its activation
and after that you can use your squad in the Vermin with their activations?
Or do the squad inside count as passengers. So you would have to make one action with the Vermin then one action with each squadmember and so on.
???
Beside that, are you allowed to deploy the Vermin with a squad inside?
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Page 40: 'Vehicles and Using Actions' - Last paragraph first column and top of second column.
Page 90 and 91 (Covers the rules for Boarding, Travelling, Disembarking, and Surviving a destroyed transport).
According to these rules, yes you can deploy the transport with a squad and this can include an officer already linked to the squad inside the transport. They are treated as a single passenger unit and this passenger unit takes action just like an additional crew member, i.e. simultaneously. So the answer to your question, Can you move the APC three actions and then use your squad immediately with all of their actions is no. They would have only 1 action remaining and since it takes 1 action to disembark, only 1 member of the squad could exit because at that point he/she would be out of actions and blocking the exit point.
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only 1 member of the squad could exit because at that point he/she would be out of actions and blocking the exit point.
Umm I dont believe that is correct. You can move through your own unit, so the rest of the unit could disembark outside the exit of the APC with no actions left. It states that it costs an AC to disembark which I took to be a move action only. I would think that you could disembark up to your MV in inches away from the exit of the transport. Am I mistaken?
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Yes if you were to disembark as the vehicles 3rd action one trooper would be infront of the door blocking the rest from exiting. It clearly states that in the book. It cost 1 action to disembark placing the model at the exit point you need a second action to move from the exit point.
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Umm I dont believe that is correct. You can move through your own unit, so the rest of the unit could disembark outside the exit of the APC with no actions left. It states that it costs an AC to disembark which I took to be a move action only. I would think that you could disembark up to your MV in inches away from the exit of the transport. Am I mistaken?
If the transport has moved 3 actions, there is only 1 action remaining to the passenger unit unless one of the passengers has more than 3 actions. A normal move action, I would agree with you, however the model is not performing a normal move, it is DISEMBARKING the transport which costs 1 action. The last remaining action that model can perform.
Check out page 91 - 2.2 - Disembarking a Transport
"...Models that disembark spend 1 action to leave the transport. They should be placed in base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport may tae another non-Wait action. Any model (friendly or enemy) in base contact with the transport's exit point will block transporting models from being able to disembark."
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Thx guys. Thats what I get for not having my book around before I open my mouth :-X
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Thx guys. Thats what I get for not having my book around before I open my mouth :-X
No problem, I did the same thing last week and I hadn't played a game nor looked at the book in almost 2 years. So, after I goofed, I pulled my book out and reread all the rules. One of the things I had forgotten i had done was write out all the FAQ corrections from the old FAQ in my book. When I get some extra time, I'm going to compare what we have now with my book to see if anything was missed and bring my notes up to date.
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Forgive me if I'm wrong here, and maybe I'm misundertsanding you Seamus--
But it seems like you're saying that after the vehicle moves only 1 guy can disembark because he's blocking the door???
If so, that not only makes no sense to me but it would also make transporting troops ridiculously useless and slow.
(In modern warfare an entire squad can dump out of vehicle (APC or helo) in a matter of seconds.)
What's more confusing is that everyone seems to be saying that the troopers in the squad disembarking only get 1 AC???
Maybe I'm missing something - but please indulge me and let me walk you guys through my logic on this--
To me this discussion breaks down into 2 areas.
1) Does the boarded squad activate as part of the vehicle's activation.
2) How many actions and troopers can be used during a disembark.
Let's begin with pg 89 first - 3rd parapgraph - "Operator and Crewmembers are activate at SAME time and can alternate the performing of actions. They are considered a SINGLE unit." (NOTE: my emphasis)
It also says "the order in which these actions are performed is up to the player...All that matters is at the end of the Vehicle's Turn, the operator and ALL OF THE CREW have taken ALL avaliable actions."
So we've learned that everyone in a Vehicle Unit (driver, gunner, etc.) during this Vehcile's Turn gets ALL their actions. Except for a very small number of exceptions, I think we can all agree this = 3 AC.
So now the key question to me is - Is the boarded squad now considered PART of the crew or a SEPARATE unit?
If the boarded squad is PART of the vehicle's crew than it would get to use it's actions (all 3) DURING the Vehicle's Turn. I.e. It could spending 1 AC to disembark and the remaining 2 AC to move, fire etc (Again, as part of the Vehicle' unit's activation). Moreover, it could use all their AC at any time during the Vehicle's Turn and as many in a row as it wants.
If it is NOT part of the Vehicle's Unit, than the boarded squad would require a SEPARATE ACTIVATION (which would make having a hero/officer on board your vehicle more useful and staretgic since as part of the vehicle's turn he could essentially activate the boarded squad and order them out) in order to disembark. Yet it would still get all 3 AC. 1 AC to disembark and 2 AC to move, etc.
Now, if we check out pg. 90 Section 2.0 - The boarded models are "considered PART of the vehicles compliment." One COULD assume this phrase means = to another crew member, and therefore entitled to ALL its actions as any crew member would, on the Vehicle's Turn.
However on pg 91. Section 2.1 we read - "While in the transport, Squads being transported are considered a SINGLE passenger unit. Here the word UNIT. Stands out to me. It is not a crew member but being referred to as a sepearte unit. Furthermore, later we read, "...during the PASSENGER UNIT's ACTIVATION, one or MORE of the squad may choose to disembark."
Here the squad is not only referred to as a UNIT, but it is also has a specific, and separate, "ACTIVATION" phase.
To me, this says the boarded squad is NOT part of the Vehicle's crew and therefore could NOT disembark during the Vehicle's Turn.
It is a separate unit and need to be activate separately.
HOWEVER - As shown above, once activated (whether on a later phase or by a commander), it would only need to spend 1 AC to disembark at which point the troopers on board would have 2 AC to move clear of the door and make way for others.
(We read in section 2.2 - "the Passenger unit needs to spend 1 AC to disembark" = this unit would then have 2 MORE actions.)
So, to me what needs to be clarified is..."considered PART of the vehicles compliment."
Does the term compliment here mean = to a crew member or not.
If yes - then the language "PASSENGER UNIT" and "PASSENGER UNIT ACTIVATION" should be changed.
D
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Please note, my capitalizations of certain words are to indicate Titles and should not be consider 'yelling'. I am debating the issue not angry or upset. ;D
Also, no need for forgiveness but I think you departed from the rules at a critical point and the rest of your confusion stems from that point.
Forgive me if I'm wrong here, and maybe I'm misundertsanding you Seamus--
Enker wanted to know if the squad could use all of their actions after the vehicle/crew had used their three actions. The answer is no.
But it seems like you're saying that after the vehicle moves only 1 guy can disembark because he's blocking the door???
Only if the scenario painted by Enker is used. If the vehicle moved 1 action then all of the squad would then have all three actions.
What's more confusing is that everyone seems to be saying that the troopers in the squad disembarking only get 1 AC???
No, they can have all three actions but actions while in a vehicle are used simultaneously. For instance, lets say the APC has a driver, a gunner and 6 models inside being transported. The 6 models while inside the transport count as a single unit, the passenger unit. The passenger unit has only two options, ride or disembark. Each time the driver and gunner and expend an action, every model that is being transported also expends an action even if it is only to ride. There is a time element introduced into the game by these simultaneous actions and it was done largely because of the ability of a few vehicle models in 2nd edition to create a situation where the pilot/driver of the vehicle could move move move then the gunner could then shoot, shoot, shoot.
Here is how I believe it is meant to work based on everything I have read and have been taught by one of the rule designers:
Action 1: Driver drives, gunner fires, passenger unit rides. This kills the first action for all units in the transport.
Action 2: Driver drives, gunner fires, passenger unit rdies. This kills the second action for all units in the transport.
Action 3: Driver drives, gunner goes on wait as their are no targets, passenger unit receives orders from their leader to disembark. However at this point, they only have one action remaining. We now switch over to the rules for disembarking. It costs one action to disembark, which is performed by placeing the model at the entrance to the passenger section. This costs 1 action. Additionally there is a rule which states if the entrance to the passenger compartment has a model in front of it (friendly or foe) then no one else can leave until the door is unblocked.
Ergo, don't disembark on the third action because the first guy out the door blocks it for the rest of the squad. Instead stay inside and disembark during the first action on the next turn. That way your squad inside the transport have all three actions available to them.
To me this discussion breaks down into 2 areas.
1) Does the boarded squad activate as part of the vehicle's activation.
2) How many actions and troopers can be used during a disembark.
I agree with this however, on point 2, I was answering a specific question.
Let's begin with pg 89 first - 3rd parapgraph - "Operator and Crewmembers are activate at SAME time and can alternate the performing of actions. They are considered a SINGLE unit." (NOTE: my emphasis)
It also says "the order in which these actions are performed is up to the player...All that matters is at the end of the Vehicle's Turn, the operator and ALL OF THE CREW have taken ALL avaliable actions."
This is the crux of our difference in opinion and where I believe you erred. The paragraph you quoted takes place in the introduction to the vehicle section and is attempting to summarize how a vehicle operates but has instead introduced verbage that clearly contradicts a BASIC GAME RULE that is laid out in SECTION 5, USING ACTIONS; page 40 near the bottom of the page in the VEHICLES AND USING ACTIONS section which states: " . . . any crew riding within it [Vehicle] must expend their actions simultaneously. If the driver uses his first action to drive, any other crewman must spend their first action before the driver can spend his second." It clearly states here in the basic rules of the game that all components of the vehicle must expend their first action, then their second action etc. simultaneously. In the second paragraph under that, it talks about models inside a transport, " . . . are considered part of a single passenger Unit. This passenger Unit takes actions just like an additional crewmember. During the passenger Unit activation, one or more of the transporting models may elect to disembark by spending one action . . . See Armored Personal (SIC) Carriers for more detail."
So we've learned that everyone in a Vehicle Unit (driver, gunner, etc.) during this Vehcile's Turn gets ALL their actions. Except for a very small number of exceptions, I think we can all agree this = 3 AC.
So now the key question to me is - Is the boarded squad now considered PART of the crew or a SEPARATE unit?[
The boarded squad is a part of the crew with a limited set of actions to two: Ride or Disembark per the rules I just quoted on page 40.
If the boarded squad is PART of the vehicle's crew than it would get to use it's actions (all 3) DURING the Vehicle's Turn. I.e. It could spending 1 AC to disembark and the remaining 2 AC to move, fire etc (Again, as part of the Vehicle' unit's activation). Moreover, it could use all their AC at any time during the Vehicle's Turn and as many in a row as it wants.
This is where we disagree. See above.
If it is NOT part of the Vehicle's Unit, than the boarded squad would require a SEPARATE ACTIVATION (which would make having a hero/officer on board your vehicle more useful and staretgic since as part of the vehicle's turn he could essentially activate the boarded squad and order them out) in order to disembark. Yet it would still get all 3 AC. 1 AC to disembark and 2 AC to move, etc.
They are clearly a part of the crew.
Now, if we check out pg. 90 Section 2.0 - The boarded models are "considered PART of the vehicles compliment." One COULD assume this phrase means = to another crew member, and therefore entitled to ALL its actions as any crew member would, on the Vehicle's Turn.
However on pg 91. Section 2.1 we read - "While in the transport, Squads being transported are considered a SINGLE passenger unit. Here the word UNIT. Stands out to me. It is not a crew member but being referred to as a sepearte unit. Furthermore, later we read, "...during the PASSENGER UNIT's ACTIVATION, one or MORE of the squad may choose to disembark."
Here the squad is not only referred to as a UNIT, but it is also has a specific, and separate, "ACTIVATION" phase.
To me, this says the boarded squad is NOT part of the Vehicle's crew and therefore could NOT disembark during the Vehicle's Turn.
It is a separate unit and need to be activate separately.
HOWEVER - As shown above, once activated (whether on a later phase or by a commander), it would only need to spend 1 AC to disembark at which point the troopers on board would have 2 AC to move clear of the door and make way for others.
(We read in section 2.2 - "the Passenger unit needs to spend 1 AC to disembark" = this unit would then have 2 MORE actions.)
So, to me what needs to be clarified is..."considered PART of the vehicles compliment."
Does the term compliment here mean = to a crew member or not.
If yes - then the language "PASSENGER UNIT" and "PASSENGER UNIT ACTIVATION" should be changed.
D
The rest of what you say is clearly resolved by what I consider the actual rule concerning the manner in which a vehicles crew expends their actions on page 40. Your entire argument hinges on that rule and the supposition that the transported squad is separate even though page 40 clearly states that this 'passenger Unit' takes actions just like a crew member. I look at the 'passenger Unit activation' stated on page 91 to refer to their phase on each succeeding action not a separate unit being activated. They don't become a separate unit until the turn after they have disembarked. I think certain verbage in the Vehicles section could have been worded better to bring it in line with the rules in Section 5 on using actions however when read in context with those rules, the meaning becomes crystal clear in my opinion.
To summarize, I believe that what I have said is right because:
A) Page 40 is a part of the basic rules and outlines how to use actions for all types models and so supercedes the verbage you use to indicate how a crew spends their actions.
B) I know from conversations with one of the rule designers which I believe can be verified by Coil, that an attempt was made to tone down the power of vehicles from second edition and prevent the usage of actions by what are essentially components of the same model in such a way that it gives them an unfair advantage.
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I see your points, Seamus. Well taken--
But, even if the Squad is part of the vehicle (and if it is, see my comments below) - then it still should have all its actions at any point in the move because I don't see the verbage in parapraph 3 on pg 89 as fluff.
It's clearly rules related and it states that the crew and driver can expend their actions in ANY order. Which means the driver can drive, drive, drive, then the gunner, can shoot, shoot, shoot, and then the passenger unit can hop off and use its 2 AC.
Now I realize these rules are in direct contradiction to Pg 40 - so I believe that this IS our problem. Again, if you've heard from the proverbial horses' mouth that pg 40 is right and 89 is wrong - so be it. Personally I think that ruins transporting usefulness.
RE: The passenger unit - if what you say is the designer's intention (that they are part of the vehicle crew) then I feel the verbage is wrong.
The term "unit" in military jargon refers to a group.
There is not a driver unit and a crew unit.
For clarity's sake IMO, the rule should therefore read that the squad is now treated as a crew member.
Also - I think it is odd that they are referrenced as requiring a separate activation. But I defer to your knowledge based on your talks with the game's writers.
NOTE: This was all said with a friendly smile and a mildly hypnotizing lilting tone ;)
;)
Cheers--
D
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So IMO the rule is that a squad inside a transport is part of the transport, with all rules applying for passengers, ok.
So if the vehicle moves three actions the troopers inside can just pray, clean their shoes or something like that for two actions
and with their last action they can disembark the transport.
But I think this is not a good rule. It makes transports to weak.
I would prefer to tread them as different units.
So you first activate the transport and after that the unit inside. Makes it more realistic.
The question is then if you let your opponent make an activation between this two units or not.
If he may do so, he could blow up the transport before the troopers could disembark, nasty but ok.
If the squad inside is activated immediatly after the vehicle it makes them very deadly,
but the rules IMO doesn't allow this (the vehicle crew can't give orders to the squad) even if you say they are two different unit.
Are the rules IMO fair?
Do we need a new rule for squad activation inside a transport?
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WarzoneD in that paragraph the Any Order you are talking about referrs to what you want to do as far as say: Move/Shoot/Ride Shoot/Ride/Move The only way for the transported unit to use all 3 actions for something other than ride is to on action 1 Disembark. Another exsample would be the Strike Commando's on the Skimmer they can disembark or shoot but there actions are taken at the same time as the vehicle.
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Pg 91 Section 2.1
Unless otherwise stated in the profile, models inside a
transport are considered protected by the Vehicle. They cannot
be directly harmed unless the Vehicle is destroyed. While in the
transport, Squads being transported are considered a single
passenger Unit. During this passenger Unit activazion, one or
more of the models may elect to disembark.
Pg 91 Section 2.2
During the passenger Unit activation. one or more of the
transported models may disembark. Models that disembark
spend 1 action to leave the transport. They should be placed in
base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to
spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport
may take another non-Wait action.
Guys
Based on reading this from the rule book, IMO the transport and the units being transported get two seperate sets of activations. I think transport and crew would get to activate, use all three of its actions , move shoot wait etc, and then the PASSENGER UNIT would get to activate.... after your opponent gets an activation. The transport and the squad being transported are ALWAYS two different units, the transport squad is just getting the advantage of the speed and protection of the transport.
Notice in section 2.1 that it doesnt say during the transport' activation it says during the passenger unit' activation meaning to me that the activations are different and not one and the same.
Another thing that makes this stand out to me, is the way troops are treated if the transport is destroyed. Unlike any other vehicle, whose crew is killed when the vehicle is destroyed, the transport has specific rules for what to do with its passengers if it is destroyed.
Thats just my feeling on the topic.
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Dont forget that page 90 2.0 states to board a transport the model must move into base contact and spend 1 action to board. Once boarded, a model's turn is ended and it is considered to be part of the Vehicle's Compliment until it disembarks. So if the models are within 1 move it takes 2 actions to board and their 3rd action is lost as all they can do is be transported for their 3rd action. The transport was designed really to move a troop safely 18 inches turn 1 with the transport shooting then at the start of turn 2 let the troops disembark while laying down covering fire with a bonus for not moving (+3) and also be cover for the troops. This way it's kind of like give orders, disembarking troops use 1 action diembark, 1 action move into position, and their 3rd action shoot/wait/etc then the vehicle would finish it's actions. This is the way the transport was entended to be used.
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Phil
I have to disagree with you there.
If Dragoons are boarding a transport, its the Dragoons activation, not the transports. So the Dragoons finishes their activation by boarding then its the opponents turn to activate a unit. Next the transport moves, shoots etc. The Dragoons have already gone so they have no actions to spend. Are you saying that the transport cant move because everyone on board doesnt have 3 actions? I dont think thats the case.
During the next turn the transport activates... to get the units closer to the action, to clear the area of threats etc...The transports activation is now done. The enemy activates a unit. Now the Dragoons activate. The first Dragoon uses one action to disembark then one action to move out of the way then one action to lay down covering fire. The rest of the Dragoons do likewise.. end of Dragoons activation.
IMO never do the two units < the transport and the Dragoons> become ONE unit. They both still have their own activations. Those activations have to be used seperately.
You are correct when you state that the unit becomes a part of the vehicles compliment..NOT crew. If they were crew.. when the transport was destroyed the unit would be as well... just like the crew of any vehicle. They arent destroyed, they are give a chance to escape, hence being part of the compliment but not the crew. Compliment just means they are protected by the transport and cant be targeted individually.
Pg 90 section 2.2 says "They should be placed in
base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to
spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport
may take another non-Wait action."
It doesnt say before the transport can take another action. IMO thats because its not the transports activation...its the units.
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Yes you are correct in paragraph 1 ,but if you read page 40 under vehicles and using actions it clearly states Passenger unit takes actions just like an additional crewmember, so on vehicle action 3 if the Passenger unit desides to disembark the 1st model would block the door since he would have no actions left to move away from the opening which is covered on page 90 2.2 last sentence. The Passenger Unit needs at least 2 actions in order to get everyone out. While the 2 units are together they are 1 unit and dont become 2 units until they disembark and activate again at which time they would be 2 seperate units. Takes the way I read it. The book is filled with contradictions we
all know that, but as stated above page 40 clearly states thr Passenger unit is treated as crew hense there actions are taken as crew until disembarked.
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Just throwing in my viewing point:
I think per the rules the squad is treated as a passenger, thus gainig actions with the crew-activation. All consequernces that result are as written already above a few times.
What I think of it:
It makes transports nearly useless and the fun of fielding them is lost. I like a bit of variability and it´s not easy to get that thing on board so it should be used....
Solutions:
1- Stick to the rules and as above.
2- Stick nearly to the rules. Let it activate with the other crew-members, but forget the thing about the disembarking. Just say it is a move action to disembark. So with the last action the troopers can hop of the transport and be happy to find cover.
3- Let them activate as a separate unit. Ok sounds good and comes near to reality. I personally think it should be done this way, BUT no activation at the end of the vehicles turn..... If its activated the initiative has to rotate again and after that the minis can disembark.
4- as above but activation starts at hte end opf the vehicles activation. No go as far as I´m concerned. that would disrupt fielding and initiative and balance.
for me it´s the possibilities 2 or 3. If you want to stick near the rules do it as per 2, if you want it more realistic do the 3.
We played it per 4 and it was no killer, but mostly because of the situation and the fielding of the rest of the battlefield. If this would be used proper and concentrated it can be devastating.....
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Pg 40 Doesnt make sense because as I stated before a transport wouldnt be able to move until the next activation because the "crew" inside wouldnt have any actions left to do anything.
If page 40 existed by itself I would agree with you but it doesnt. Page 90 specifically goes into detail about use of transports. Page 40 even states see armored personal carries for more details.
But to make sure Im clearly understanding you Phil. Based on page 40 You are saying that it would take 3 turns to get a squad into a transport< 1 trun because transport cannot move because crew has no actions left>, move 18"< crew cannot disembark because their actions were used during the transports movement> and disembark<crew activates, disembarks and transport has only 2 actions left when it activates>? If so that makes transports useless. Using the rules on page 40 takes away activations from both the unit and the transport. I do not beleive that was the intention.
Not knowing the intentions of the writer, but using the rest if the ruleset and the fact that there are several areas that talk about using transports, as a guide, I believe that:
1. A unit spends an action to board a transport.
2. The transport still can activate and use all of its actions ie move, fire ect
2a. end of turn
3. The transported units can disembark the next turn and use their remaining 2 actions
4. The transport can now activate and use its 3 actions
4a. numbers 3 and 4 are interchangeable
I just dont see that making a unit spend 3 activations to move 18" is what a transport was designed to do.
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Not only move,
but i think its hidden paratrooping without the fear of hitting hard ground.
If you play it as I said, with activating the passengers with the vehicle and using the disembarking as a m ove action you gain the following:
- movement of 18 inch in COVER of an armor of 24
- moving while shooting with the turret MHMG while doing the 18 inch
- and last but not least in the same turn you can MOVE another 3 inch into cover again (perhaps the APC itself)
--> OK that presumes that you start with a squad in a vehicle, but that is what it should do, fast movement and hart hitting while doing it
--> it´s not covered by the rules as I see that, but I err. As I said it describes what you can make of it and what even should be done. If you add the action of the moving troops at the end of the transport or at another activation it gets even better, but I think that would overpower the whole thing.
--> what I proposed takes cover of the rules and you have only to "remodel" the disembarking in your head.
(BTW: if you want a mix of both: Activate the models in the APC distinct from the crew in another separate activation but stick to the disembarking! that meaning the disembarkers get one action to disembark, one to move away and clear the space and as last one action you can use as you wish....)
Please don´t think the answers where shouted. I used big charakters for a bit of emphasisi, but it shouldn´t look angry ;-))
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To answer your #1 it actually takes 2 or more actions depending on distance from APC must move into BTB contact then board the transport. #2 Actually No since they are at this point 2 units when the unit was finished your opponent would go then you could activate the APC or the APC may have already gone moving closer to the squad that was goig to board. As page 40 states they are considered Crewmen and if you read on page 92 under Multi-Crewed Vehicles it reads: when a vehicle has more than 1 model in its crew, then each model has a set of action. In general, they must each use an actin before any of them can use another action. Meaning that if the APC moved 3 times the crew would only have 1 action that could be used at that point not all 3 actions. So yes #'s 3 and 4 are correct but not interchangable since if the APC uses it's 3 actions the transported unit would only have 1 action left.
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I think thats the key issue here, Are the units on board crew or not.
Logically i dont see them as crew, most APCs and transports have seperate crew and passenger sections.
As someone else has said previously, when in a transport all they can do is hold on and pray. They have no control over what goes on with the transport. They cant fire or spot or anything that requires an action.
Crew of the APC can fire and or drive thus requiring actions. The tranportees can do neither, they can just wait and check their weapons and prepare for battle.
While I respect your opinion, I think they way you read it < or it is written> makes transports useless. But if we play it your way Ill make sure your troops die like the rest of the crew ;D
I think the easiest way to "fix" this, would be to classify the passengers as passengers and the crew as crew being two seperate units each having their own activations. This IMO gives the transports the flexibility they were designed to bring to an army.
I think tho that we need some kind of a consensus, maybe from the FAQ team?
Seeing as I dont use transports, Ill play it either way but I think it should be cleared up
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I value your opinion too my friend, but in this case the rules are clearly spelled out and there is no need for this to be FAQ'ed. APC's are not useless, they just have to be used correctly to be effective. They work well in scenerio games where you need to get a squad to an objective quickly . I personlly dont use them, but if I did I'd start with a squad in the APC on turn 1 I would move 3 times shooting each action if possible then on turn 2 my 1st activation would be the APC action 1 APC shoots with +3 for not moving squad disembarks uses there actions then the APC shoot at +3 for it's 2nd action then shoot and move for it's 3rd action. On turn 3 they would now be 2 seperate units and activate at seperate times.
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Im afraid I don't think they're very clear since they clearly contrdict themselves. Now one can choose to say pg 40 is right and pr. 89 is wrong - but that's rather arbitrary IMO.
So, I have to agree with Phillysniper here.
And I like Lopis suggstion #3
"Let them activate as a separate unit. Ok sounds good and comes near to reality. I personally think it should be done this way, BUT no activation at the end of the vehicles turn..... If its activated the initiative has to rotate again and after that the minis can disembark.
The UWZ rules are designed to simulate combat reality.
I spoke with my buddy who is an army capitain about the logistics and terminology about this.
Like PS stated, in real life the vehicle has its own crew and commander. A squad being transported has a separate commander. Never does the military consider the squad on board as now part of the crew.
Even the Air Force pararescue jumpers who work tightly with their helo crews are considered 2 separate squads working together.
I think, as myself and others have stated, the key issue is - does the boarding squad join the crew.
I don't believe it does, esp. since even the rulebook uses the term "complement" instead of crew.
And, haviing read all the arguments so far - in terms of usefulness and game play - it seems to me the squad should remain a SEPARATE UNIT and therefore should require a SEPARATE ACTIVATION
I believe this is implied in the rules - since nowhere else does it say the crew requires a CREW ACTIVATION PHASE. Why would it single out the passenger unit? Nowhere else do the rules do this.
IMO this makes tranporting tricky but still useful, AND more importantly it simulates real life combat, and, as I wrote earlier, adds several elements of strategy - eg. Use of officers on board the vehicle to give orders (which would be the only case in which one could effectively move a vehicle and immed disembark a boarded squad before your enemy moves again), when to board/move/disembark, etc. Think about it - now you have to decide if its worth it to put a division or force commander on a vehicle or use him elsewhere on the field.
The other method described simply makes no sense to me (real life or gamewise). If it was the designer's intention, well then I think it's a bit broken.
For instance - according to what your agruing - My boarding squad boards an APC and joins the crew - well then if it does that means it automatically activates the vehicle - since as part of the crew - now all the other crew members get to use their actions?
You could argue no - once it boards its done.
But then on my next go couldn't I subsequently activate my vehicle - the squad onboard now effectively gains a SECOND activation in the same turn (since it is part of the crew). After all instead of moving I could always just stay put, have the gunners fire their guns, and let my squad disembark and use its other 2 actions. (effectively just hiding in the hard cover during my opponent's activation. (or are you going to penalize the vehicle and saying it loses its activation when a squad boards it???)
It just doesn't work.
D
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Please help me understand what is not clear on page 40 about the Passenger unit being considered crew and on page 92 about the way a multicrewed vehicles actions are used. This isn't about the way we want things to work, it's about the way the rules say they work.Please read page 40 and 92 then reread pages 90-91 2.0 to 2.2 with that info. ;D
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First off all:
I didnt reread the rules exactly, but we had this constellation in the scenario so I read them then and distill what is needed:
@Dragon:
You´re right. I don´t know exactly on which pages, but somewhere is statedt that the boarded troops activate as passengers and on another point is described how passengers work. And they activate as the crewmembers do.
But if you foolow these rules again and further you can´t disembark!
Because all activate alltogether in a round only 3 guys can leave the transport, Thy all activate in the same action, but in different segemnts.
I´ll show you what follows if you do it your way:
1st Action:
a) driver drives or stands and looks
b) gunner shoots
c) boarded guy disembarks....
d) boarded guy can´t disembark because there´s no free space (another one in the exit door)
e) as d
and so on
--> Since all other minis activate now they can´t exit, one in the door, and the one in the door can´t move since it´s not another action allowed for him!!!
2nd Action
a) driver does his
b) gunner guns
c) disembarked guy moves and makes the door free
d) another boarded guy disembarks and blocks the door......
e) see above
and so on and on and on ???
So these rules simply can´t be meant this way. I see your point , but can you show me some other more useless models than that if this is true ? ?
So i gave some possibilities to handle it.
If someone has better ideas, just bring ´em out!
And BTW: @WarzoneD
I hope you want to applicate this only to the APC?
Because this blade has two sides....The passengers of the Skimmer would lose their drive-by shooting ability because they are passengers too.
But somewehere is stated they are members of the crew....so it wouldn´t apply anyway It hink
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Actually it says disembark and use remaining actions thats why if you wait till action 3 only 1 guy can disembark, and the door would be blocked since he cant move away from the door.That's why I gave an exsample of the way it should be used. Also as far as the Skimmer it states that they can shoot or disembark.
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in my example I started in Action 1
Probelm is that if you do it by the rules you need 3 full turns to get a squad out of the APC... ???
3 Actions per model and for more than 6 models you need the third turn.....
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I think Lopis just voiced my issue with the way its worded.
As you read it Phil unless you start your units in the transport it takes 3 turns to move them up to 18" and have them be a viable fighting unit again. That makes transports useless except as a moving weapons platform thats arent cheap imo
For the same 3 turns with a nine-man squad I can have 5 fire, 4 move 6" to a more tactically advantageous position and then fire or just move 9" to cover or whatever or any combo of the three for three turns, which give me more flexibility and the same distance with more shots on targets< at least 15 shots, in the previous example> vs 3 from the transport.
I know what pg 40 says but I also know that pgs 90-91 were also written with words that back up my side of the debate< the words passenger unit werent chosen by random, they could have just used crew>. Those pages were written specifically for use of a transport whereas pg 40 starts by saying "in general". It also goes on to say " passenger unit activation" which makes them different from the crew in wording. We have said before when things were unclear to go with the section specifically devoted to the situation which the transports pages are. Page 40 could and does cover the strike skimmer but pages 90 and 91 wouldnt.
Thats why I say it needs to be cleared up. You gave a great example of how it could work by your thinking but I can give you several of why it can work by my thinking.
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When you take page 40 and page 92 it doesn't support the way your reading pages 90-91 also it doesn't take 3 Turns to go 18 inches it takes 3 Actions inwhich you can also fire its weapons. On Turn 2 action 1 disembark use all disembarking troop actions and the APC still its actions it doesnt take 3 turns to disembark the squad as Lopis states. The way its written as long as you disembark on action 1 or 2 you can get everyone out. If you disembark on action 2 all you can do is exit and move up to your normal move to get out of the way since they only would have 2 actions to use.
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in my example I started in Action 1 (...)
unfortunately, it is wrong..
in normal action spending it is true that the second action of that guy from the passenger-unit is linked to the actions of the vehicle.
after the exit-action however he _must_ spend all of his actions _at once_
so your example looks like this:
1st Action:
a) driver drives or stands and looks
b) gunner shoots
c) boarded guy disembarks....
d) boarded guy can´t disembark because there´s no free space (another one in the exit door) spends 2. and 3. AC
2nd Action
a) driver does his
b) gunner guns
c) disembarked guy moves and makes the door free is done
d) another boarded guy disembarks and blocks the door...... spends action 2+3
right?
@useful:
well, to link the actions to the vehicle meas the famous (GW rhino rush, i remember?) tactic "i move my transporter, disembark and shoot (with 2 A)" is not possible
on the second turn it´s still qute weak because disembarking effectively costs 2 Actions: get out + get away
-> it´s really not to rush but to transport.
whether this is more or less "realistic" i don´t know..
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When you take page 40 and page 92 it doesn't support the way your reading pages 90-91 also it doesn't take 3 Turns to go 18 inches it takes 3 Actions inwhich you can also fire its weapons. On Turn 2 action 1 disembark use all disembarking troop actions and the APC still its actions it doesnt take 3 turns to disembark the squad as Lopis states. The way its written as long as you disembark on action 1 or 2 you can get everyone out. If you disembark on action 2 all you can do is exit and move up to your normal move to get out of the way since they only would have 2 actions to use.
Phil
You are correct IF you start the units in the transport.
If the units are not started in the transport, it takes at least 2 turns to mount the transport move 18" and dismount because by your interpretation if the transport hasnt activated before the troops get in then it CANT move more than 1 action because the "crew" inside has spent 2 to get there < its interesting if some needed 3 actions to get there, but thats for later>. Then on the next turn it can move 2 actions if the troops plan to get out because they need 2 actions to get out and out of the way.
And you still keep forgetting the term "passenger unit" ;D
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Your point is moot. Why would you spend Turn 1 loading a squad into the APC when you can start already on board? The Passender Unit ( All models in squad are treated as 1 PU and the PU is treated as Crew as per page 40.)
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You are assuming that I want to start them in the transport. Suppose in turn 2 or later I see something I want to take advantage of by moving a squad quickly, Thats where my point is so its not a moot point.
Phil not to seem snippy but you are focusing on one example and not the broad use of the unit. The way you are reading the rules makes it extremely limiting for the transport and for the costs and criteria of getting a transport I dont think that was the intention. You are using a generic rule pg 40 to cover a specialized vehicle with its own rules that are written in the rulebook pg 90 -91< tho they are not as clear as they could be>. Again the terms passenger unit and passenger unit activation seem to me to point to seperate action for the specialized vehicle which is the transport which has its own rules.
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I dont think your being snippy at all we just dont see it the same way. Page 40 is a rule on what actions can be taken, but it clearly states the Passenger unit is treated as addition crew. page 90-91 cover vehicles but page 92 disscribes how actions must be used by multi-crewed vehicles. My opinion on this subject is based on all 4 pages not just 2 pages. The APC was really only intended for objective games as per it's fluff.
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Your view is entirely correct IF the boarded squad is considered crew as pg 40 the general vehicle rules would suggest. Using that page as a guideline then the vehicle would be muliti crewed and page 92 would also be in effect. If they are crew, if the transport is destroyed, they WOULD NOT get a chance to save and they would die just as a vehicles crew do when it is destroyed.
BUT
Pages 90 and 91 which are devoted to TRANSPORTS states that the unit is part of the vehicles complement <websters defination being one that fills up or completes.> just as lumber oil or any other cargo would be part of the complement <cant be targeted seperately from the transport>. In that view, the unit has no actions to use or lose during movement as they are just being carried along. And they have to activate seperately in order to use actions. It also states that they would get a chance to save should the transport be destroyed which CREW do not get.
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Incorrect wording on my part The PU takes actions as addition crewmen as per page 40. They are treated as Crew in the way there actions are used.
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Seems like you're pretty steadfast on maintaining your point of view despite a number of very sound and convincing arguments from a several different players on here.
And, hey that's fine, I totally get your conviction and respect it, but I agree with PS that this item should be FAQ'd - otherwise I don't see how it can be resolved short of one person saying "I'm right and you're not." Which I think we can all agree wouldn't be in the nature of this forum or in the best interest of the game.
Cheers
D
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I really want to chime in here, but will not, just yet. I am following the discussion, but am without my book, at the moment.
I love to see the talk and the debate, and commend all involved for keeping it to the point without letting emotion take over.
I will try to remember to chime in tomorrow with my thoughts after having checked the book.
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Well I've been following this debate and I have decided to add my opinion to the mix.
When riding in the APC, troops expend actions as if they were part of the crew. Just as you cannot drive, drive, drive and then shoot, shoot, shoot you cannot deploy out of the actions sequence of the vehicle. Basically the vehicle is a unit and the crew are symbiotic components that make the whole function. The basic question is using actions so the best place to get the answer is in the section on using actions.
The rule is stated clearly and in simple terms on page 40, first column, first paragraph of the Vehicles and Using Actions section - In general, when a vehicle is activated, any crew riding within it must expend their actions simultaneously. If the driver uses his first action to drive, any other crewman must spend their first action before the driver can spend his second. If the driver spends his second action before the crew takes their first the unspent actions are are lost, unless a Special Ability declares otherwise. That covers the rules citations in my opinion. As for rewriting the rules just because you don't like them I find it short-sighted with regard to game balance. If troops are allowed to disembark at will with all their actions then the transport becomes overly powerful for it's points. Warzone becomes a vehicle-centric game and the tactics are lost.
Tactically the APC is best used when the driver takes his first action, then the gunner attacks the strongest opponent within firing guidelines and then the troops disembark. Now the Troops use action 2 to move to cover, the gunner fires and the driver puts the vehicle between the troops and harms way. The final action is similar to the second. Optionally the driver always goes first and the troops follow behind using the APC for cover much as the troops in WWII used tanks. Using the APC as a shield allows the troops to move forward under cover and yet break at any point of the turn without getting stuck in a disembarking bottleneck.
The FAQ Team in my opinion is there to correct ambiguity in the rules not to redesign the rules someone dislikes. That being said no one here is held to the FAQ Team's interpretation, my interpretation or anyone elses when playing a simple game with your group. Just come to an agreement beforehand. However if you are playing at a Con or special event respect the ruling of the event organizer or judge. Arguing a point with the guy running the event is pointless and ruins the fun for all the players. If you disagree with something state your objection calmly and abide by his decsion.
In closing the rules in this instance are pretty clear in my opinion. Instead of changing them to fit your tactics try working with them as written and you might discover some new and inventive ways to use the APC in the game.
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Interesting tactic, and sound sounding, although the last bit of using the vehicle as a shield might not work since--
pg. 92 - "For that reason, models may never use vehicles for purposes of cover."
Which, while I understand the game balance aspect, given your WWII example, doesn't quite sense--
RE: Rewriting the rules. I don't think anyone is trying to do that. It seems to me we are trying to clarify them. 2 camps seem to exist. Those who hail page 40 and those who hail page 89.
Just my observation--
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Interesting tactic, and sound sounding, although the last bit of using the vehicle as a shield might not work since--
pg. 92 - "For that reason, models may never use vehicles for purposes of cover."
Which, while I understand the game balance aspect, given your WWII example, doesn't quite sense--
RE: Rewriting the rules. I don't think anyone is trying to do that. It seems to me we are trying to clarify them. 2 camps seem to exist. Those who hail page 40 and those who hail page 89.
Just my observation--
The only reference I found on page 92 regarding using vehicles as cover, Is the last paragraph of column 1 - "While a trooper may use a vihicle to block an enemy's line of sight, no soldier would be foolish enough to use the vehicle for cover....Blasts that hardly scratch the armor of a vehicle would be very lethal to soldiers hiding behind it. For that reason models may never use vehicles for purposes of cover." I assume this is the statement you are referencing.
All I see is that I chose my words poorly, the tactic is sound. By advancing behind the tank the troops are effectively using it to block Line of Sight. It provides cover in that way but leaves them vulnerable to blast damage. The troops are not claiming hard cover they are merely using the vehicle to block line of sight. Besides as long as the vehicle is closer to the enemy the opposing troops would have to pass a Tac Sense roll to attack them rather than the vehicle.
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If troops are allowed to disembark at will with all their actions then the transport becomes overly powerful for it's points.
well, even if they don´t loose actions to the transport driving (-> having 3 actions after 3 times driving)
they still spend 1 A to disembark, leaving them with 2 actions AND they need 1 action to move away (not to block the door)
(the disembark is not a move action, right?)
-> just 1 shooting action (exept the last guy, who has 2)
hardly to powerful, if you think that a transport costs >100 P and will most likely move & shoot (not getting the +3)
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OK, yeah yoiu got it right...
overread the part that the disembarker has to spend the remaining actions before the other models do anything else.
That makes the transport a bit better!
With that if moved as last action in a turn on won initiative it means a rush of 27 inches with a remainig action to shoot. sounds good to me, since the disembarkers are covered by the APC which blasts a little bit away if staying tight or moves in front after all disembarked models spent their actions and blocks LOS for them.
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Another thought occurred to me last night.
A few months back there were whispers of a PDF of a vehicle supplement that might possibly be released to the public this year.
Maybe such a document will clarify all this...
D
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Too late :o
Now we solved the problem (nearly) ;D
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The problems not solved. I just am not going to debate a point with people who say that I dont know tactics so I want to change the rule. I see the rules as saying something different so I asked for a clarification.
In most other instances specific rules for weapons, characters, special abilities etc outweight the general game mechanic rules. But in THIS case people want to hold onto a general game rule pg 40 when the rules for transports pg 90, 91 CLEARLY say something different.
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Hmm Ok then it seemed only solved for me.
Looks like I´m deep in between the different factions with my thinking of how it should work, that for me it seemed clear since I foudn a way of not breaking all the rules and doing it in a way of which I think (and I think my playing group would also) it would work.
In this case I revoke all I said and now I claim the opposite!
Or just take the smiley (and the parenthesis) for irony ;D <-- not this one, this one is really happy/friendly as this one --> ;D
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I'll be back soon with my take on it.
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Besides as long as the vehicle is closer to the enemy the opposing troops would have to pass a Tac Sense roll to attack them rather than the vehicle.
Just have to add a "oh, that's one thing that got changed since 2nd ed". Size affecting targeting priorities, that is... oh well, not a very important point in this discussion.
What I think is confusing about page 40 is the definition of the "Passenger unit". They act just like a crew member, but once disembarked they use all remaining actions, effectively breaking the bond to the vehicle... (Ok, and page 91 further explains why the "Passenger unit" term is used at all; since the passengers can consist of models from several units. That cleared things up a bit).
I also think the "the disembarked guys must use all their actions before the rest of the vehicle can use their non-wait actions" confuses things a bit; if the passengers activate at the same time as the transport, none of them can be Waiting anyway, right? I mean, since they are all active.
After reading the relevant pages, I think I've got it down to: it's not very clearly written, as you have to read several pages very far apart from each other, but once you've done that, yes, Seamus, Topkick and their "camp" is right here. I think these rules are way too complicated and messy, though. Definately a hot houserule candidate.
By the way, this message was way to complicated and messy, too. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Stupid swede... ;D
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The problems not solved. I just am not going to debate a point with people who say that I dont know tactics so I want to change the rule. I see the rules as saying something different so I asked for a clarification.
In most other instances specific rules for weapons, characters, special abilities etc outweight the general game mechanic rules. But in THIS case people want to hold onto a general game rule pg 40 when the rules for transports pg 90, 91 CLEARLY say something different.
I tried to stay out of this because I knew my answer would not solve the problem and would tick someone off. However you specifically PM'ed me and asked for my opinion. I'm sorry that you don't like the result of your request. I tried to be polite and include the phrase - "in my opinion". I do not see that the rules are conflicted and said so.The rule on page 40 is not a general rule - it is the rule for using actions in the situation as I read it. To do it the way you seem to advocate gives two units their actions instead of having alternating actions which is a key element of the game.
The way you want to do it, where the passenger unit has all it's actions after the crew has done theirs, violates the alternating actions and unbalances the game because of that double activiation. Now if you want the vehicle to move and then sit there while your opponent activates and performs actions with one of his units before you activate the passenger unit - that I could support.
Your argument seems to hinge on the phrase Passenger Unit. I believe that it is a name and not a differentiation of units. The transported squad is technically not crew but nor is it an independent unit. It functions in this instance like a parasite - dependent on the host. I may be wrong and if I am I will accept the ruling in good grace. However, I am done with this debate. I refuse to get drug into an escalating arguement. My opinion was asked for; I stated it; when challenged I defended it. Now I choose to go back to the sidelines and watch. This time I hope I will be smart enough not to get dragged into something like this again.
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My two cents, for what it’s worth considering the fall of the value of the $US ;).
(Remember, my opinion is no more or less valid than another is, and should not be mistaken as an official answer unless the FAQ Team makes it so)
Pg. 40
VEHICLES AND USING ACTIONS
In general, when a Vehicle is activated, any crew riding within it must expend their actions simultaneously. If the driver uses his first action to drive, any other crewman must spend their first action before the driver can spend his second. If the driver spends his second action before the crew takes their first, the unspent first crew actions are lost, unless a Special Ability declares otherwise.
Models inside a transport are considered a part of a single passenger Unit. This passenger Unit takes actions just like an additional crewmember. During the passenger Unit activation, one or more of the transporting1 models may elect to disembark by spending one action. They must then spend all their remaining actions before any other member of the crew or passengers may take an additional non-Wait action. Note that any number of passengers may elect to disembark during passenger Unit activation. See Armored Personnel Carriers for more detail.
The above rule is, in and of itself, clear. Models riding inside the transport are treated like crew, but are a separate Unit who must spend their actions in conjunction with the crew of the vehicle while riding in the vehicle. They may disembark the vehicle during any activation, but then must spend the rest of their actions before the vehicle returns to its activation, no matter how many models disembark. They have as many actions left as their original number of actions less the number of actions that the Vehicle has taken, plus their current action.
Pp. 90-91
Armored Personnel Carriers (APC)
Vehicles designed to carry troops are noted as APCs in the Special Rules portion of their Profile. The number that follows this designation represents the number of SZ 2 models that it can carry. A Vehicle may carry double the amount of SZ 1 than it can SZ 2. Alternately, a vehicle can carry half that amount in SZ3 models.2
2.0- Boarding a Transport (Embarking)
A model that wishes to Board a Transport must Move into Base Contact with the Transport Vehicle and expend one action to Board. Once boarded, the model’s Turn is ended and it is considered to be a part of the Vehicle’s Compliment until it disembarks.
Models may board in any order, and may start the game deployed inside of a Transport. Should all the models in a Squad not make it into the transport or are too many for the capacity of the Vehicle, and then those models are considered left behind. Unless the Squad leader is with them they will be considered out of Command Distance and suffer the penalties associated with that state.
For an embarked modes3, place the Unit Card of the Boarded model next to the Transport Vehicle until that model Disembarks.
The sophisticated locking systems and vigilance by the Vehicle’s crew keeps enemy models from boarding a Transport. Therefore, no enemy model may Board a Transport Vehicle.
2.1- Traveling in a Transport
Unless otherwise stated in the profile, models inside a transport are considered protected by the Vehicle. They cannot be directly harmed unless the Vehicle is destroyed. While in the transport, Squads being transported are considered a single passenger Unit. During this passenger Unit activation, one or more of the models may elect to disembark.
2.2- Disembarking a Transport
During the passenger Unit activation, one or more of the transported models may disembark. Models that disembark spend 1 action to leave the transport. They should be placed in base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport may take another non-Wait action. Any model (friendly or enemy) in base contact with the transport’s exit point will block transporting models from being able to disembark.
Again, the rules are clear, and I do not see any confusion. Models riding as passengers are not, actually, crew, but must spend their actions in the same order as the crew until they disembark, at which point they must spend all of their actions before the vehicle resumes spending its remaining actions. In other words, if they wish to disembark on the first action, then the get to disembark with one action and spend their remaining actions before the vehicle spends it second action. If they do not disembark on the first Vehicle action, then the passenger Unit loses its first action. If they wait until the Vehicle has taken three actions, they will only have their original number of actions, less the three actions the Vehicle has taken, plus their current action.
Example: A transport is carrying a Squad of Imperial Regulars (four troopers, a Sergeant and an HMG Spec). The player activates his Transport, and Moves on the first action. The player then decides to disembark the passenger Unit during the passenger Unit activation. The Player moves the first model into base contact with the exit point of the Transport on its first action, moves 4” on its second action, and fires at a Machinator Mk I on its third. The next model is moved in similar fashion, and all models are disembarked. The Vehicle then spends its second action to Move. Remaining actions are spent.
Example: A transport is carrying a Squad of Children of Ilian (16 kids and a Scion). The vehicle spends three actions Moving. The player then wishes to disembark the passenger unit. The first model is moved into base contact with the exit point with its third action, and winds up blocking the door for any other models wishing to disembark. The activation for the vehicle and its passenger unit is complete, and the lone disembarked child is out of Command Distance.
Unless I am misunderstanding something, disembarking from a Transport is clear. Where there may be some confusion is whether a Squad that embarks a vehicle can then disembark during the Vehicle’s activation. The answer to this is not as clear.
Once a model embarks a vehicle, its turn is over. Therefore, the model cannot disembark until the [edit] following turn.[edit] However, because the model(s) becomes part of the vehicle’s compliment, does this mean that the vehicle’s turn is over, now, too? I would say, “no.” After all, a vehicle could move, then receive troops, and can disgorge troops during its activation, therefore it should be allowed to receive models, then move, or any combination of moving and receiving/disgorging.
Have I cleared this up, at all? Have I made it less clear? Does this make sense?
I welcome feedback and counterpoint.
1 - should read, "transported"
2 - this has been FAQ'd
3 - I believe that this should be translated as, "For any embarked model(s)"
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in my example I started in Action 1 (...)
unfortunately, it is wrong..
in normal action spending it is true that the second action of that guy from the passenger-unit is linked to the actions of the vehicle.
after the exit-action however he _must_ spend all of his actions _at once_
so your example looks like this:
1st Action:
a) driver drives or stands and looks
b) gunner shoots
c) boarded guy disembarks....
d) boarded guy can´t disembark because there´s no free space (another one in the exit door) spends 2. and 3. AC
2nd Action
a) driver does his
b) gunner guns
c) disembarked guy moves and makes the door free is done
d) another boarded guy disembarks and blocks the door...... spends action 2+3
right?
Correct, almost. The 2nd Action would only occur once all models wishing to disembark have done so, and spent their remaining actions. Therefore, the 2nd disembarked guy acts from his first action on, not from hhis second action on.
@useful:
well, to link the actions to the vehicle meas the famous (GW rhino rush, i remember?) tactic "i move my transporter, disembark and shoot (with 2 A)" is not possible
on the second turn it´s still qute weak because disembarking effectively costs 2 Actions: get out + get away
-> it´s really not to rush but to transport.
whether this is more or less "realistic" i don´t know..
I concur
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I have read through all the arguments in the thread and also the relevant sections of the rulebook.
I totally agree with Seamus' answer to the original question. That means that disembarking on the 3rd action will be rather silly since you will only be able to get one model out.
Does this make transports useless? No, you just have to use them in a different way. There is no UWZ equivalent of the GW Rhino-rush. Instead I would move up and fire on the way during the first turn and try to end the transport's 3rd action out of LOS from any nasty RLs. Then on turn 2 I would move forward an action or two and then have the passengers jump out (Topkick had a good description of how to do it).
There is one issue which may be slightly problematic within the rules and that is if the transport can drive away after a squad boards it. A strict reading would imply that no it cannot move since the passengers have no actions left to "Ride". My opinion is that yes the transport would be able to move anyway if it has not been activated yet that turn.
They should be placed in base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport may take another non-Wait action.
The reason for this little oddity is that without it you would still have the exit being blocked a lot. But it is not so odd after all since the normal rule is to activate one model at a time performing all 3 actions before continuing with the next. When the passengers start to disembark the temporary "passenger unit" is dissolved. The vehicle (and crew) also hold while the passengers disembark. This means that the vehicle may have actions left after the passengers have exited and moved away. These can then be used to get the transport away or perhaps move up and block LOS.
/Andreas
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Unless I am misunderstanding something, disembarking from a Transport is clear. Where there may be some confusion is whether a Squad that embarks a vehicle can then disembark during the Vehicle’s activation. The answer to this is not as clear.
Once a model embarks a vehicle, its turn is over. Therefore, the model cannot disembark until the [edit] following turn.[edit] However, because the model(s) becomes part of the vehicle’s compliment, does this mean that the vehicle’s turn is over, now, too? I would say, “no.” After all, a vehicle could move, then receive troops, and can disgorge troops during its activation, therefore it should be allowed to receive models, then move, or any combination of moving and receiving/disgorging..
I agree with you. To put it a different way, you have two different units on the table; the transport and the squad who intend to board it. The turn they board, is the turn in which they merge with the transport. If it hasn't activated yet, it can still activate and move on that turn. On the next turn, the squad inside becomes the member of the crew known as the 'passenger unit' and they have a choice, ride or disembark. At the point they disembark, they become a seperate unit, completing all their actions model by model.
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@Hal
Yup I did ask for and get your opinion. I dont want you to think that you were the only one to state that I need to change tactics. I received a couple of emails as well that made that statement. I appreciate open discourse and thank you for your opinion.
Now if you want the vehicle to move and then sit there while your opponent activates and performs actions with one of his units before you activate the passenger unit - that I could support.
That is the point that I was trying to make through all of this.
But seeing as I am in the minority, I will admit that I was reading the rules incorrectly. I apologise if I offended anyone with my words, phrasing or attitude. I thank you all for the debate.
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@Hal
Yup I did ask for and get your opinion. I dont want you to think that you were the only one to state that I need to change tactics. I received a couple of emails as well that made that statement. I appreciate open discourse and thank you for your opinion.
Sorry Brother I have been worrying about a job interview and the waiting to hear back is getting to me. I apologize if I was overly harsh.
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No worries big guy ;D
Hakunamatata ;)