Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Chronopia => Game Questions => Topic started by: lancekilljoy on September 20, 2005, 07:06:40 AM
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Me and some friends have been playing chronopia for a while and we have this nagging question that comes up every game. Since the soul flayer has the bale-fire attack, can it breath fire from height band 1 onto a model in height band 0? If so, how do you measure that? Is it from the top of the height band 1?
my poor elves have been friend every game by a beast they can't even attack :'(. your help and rule clarifications are appreciated ;D.
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I usally meausre it from the lowest number in height band 1. but Thats not offical but it would be the most realistic in my opinion.
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I'm still puttin' mine together, and would like an answer before I run my devout. I was under the impression that the soul flayer had to be on the ground to use this template. I guess a good reading of the rules would be in order.
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I usally meausre it from the lowest number in height band 1. but Thats not offical but it would be the most realistic in my opinion.
I don't have my rulebook on me, but from my memory i believe that height band was from tabletop to 3 in above the tabletop. Does this mean that you could measure from 1 cm above the table top (basically exactly from tabletop)? And, if thats the case, does that make sense since ordinary troops still couldn't hit the soulflayer in height band 1?
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Measure the template. If the Soul Flayer breathes from HB 1 onto ground based units they would be hit. If they have spears however they could hit back...
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i dont want to be rule laywering but my Rulebook states:
"Directly placed Templated weapons cannot be targeted at Flyers outside the attackers Height band."
So if that goes for any other direct placed template weapon, why making another exclusion rule for the sf? ::)
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i dont want to be rule laywering but my Rulebook states:
"Directly placed Templated weapons cannot be targeted at Flyers outside the attackers Height band."
So if that goes for any other direct placed template weapon, why making another exclusion rule for the sf? ::)
As I understand the question the Flayer is flying at Height Band 1 and targeting a unit on the ground. Thom's response says the Flayer may flame from HB 1 to a unit on the ground and if they have spears (which add 1" to the attack of a unit) then the unit may attack back. If I am correct there is no template being targeted at a flyer, so I do not understand your point. Please post a follow-up so the situation can fully addressed.
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The wording probably was just intended so that the balefire couldn't be breathed upward into another height band...
And if you're playing elves, why don't you have Militia, Spearmen, or Archers? Or a Lotus Eater? If your Devout player is a fan of the Soul Flayer, introduce him to the Flying Dragonbane.
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Good advice Dag
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The question is when a template weapon isnt able to target another Highband as the rules say it why should the souldflayer be able to do it with his balefire?
If the soulflayer can breath from another highband there is no reason why a flamethrower or a flame lance can't do the same (but obviously the rules say they arent alloowed too).
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I don`t think the Soulflayer breathes up or down a height band.
Heightband 1 is 1 to 3 inches high.
Models standing on the ground are effectively in height band 0 AND height band 1 (if they are at least 1 inch tall) or maybe even HB 0,1 and 2 (if they are larger than 3 inches).
The soulflayer at heightband 1 uses its balefire attack and hits models at least 1 inch tall. So she is not using the template to attack something in another heightband, just the models in HB 1...
Do I make sense????
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a bit ;D
But what do the poor races wich dont have spearmen than? Just call it a day and give the devout player the win while he hovers all over his army and kills them without haveing to fear retaliation :o ?.
The problem comes with having a HB 0 if all Models are in HB 1 (i guess only goblins wich just got trampled by a myrmodon can be considerd to be in HB 0 ;) ).
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Good point!
But in my example models would be in HB 0 and 1 and could attack the Soulflayer while she is in HB 1...
Troops with spears may even attack flyers in HB 2, depending how tall they are...
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In your example both are in HB1 wich means the SF can breath and the other models can attack her without needing Spears. I still dont think the rules allow an SF to breath from HB 2 into HB 1 8)
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The wording probably was just intended so that the balefire couldn't be breathed upward into another height band...
And if you're playing elves, why don't you have Militia, Spearmen, or Archers? Or a Lotus Eater? If your Devout player is a fan of the Soul Flayer, introduce him to the Flying Dragonbane.
I have all of those, the problem comes in with the massive amount of wounds that the sf has (5 wounds). The flying dragonbane may do a maximum of 4 wounds and then be eaten. Milita, spearmen have to make a dread test before attacking the sf, both having about average leadership and neither have i been able to fully take down a sf (partly bad dice rolling, partly the strength of the weapons). I have used archers effectively against the sf, but that is only when the player makes the mistake of putting the sf closer than any of his other units.
Good point!
But in my example models would be in HB 0 and 1 and could attack the Soulflayer while she is in HB 1...
Troops with spears may even attack flyers in HB 2, depending how tall they are...
so are all troops effectively in HB 1? :o that would make a little more sense... although you would constantly have to state exactly how far in HB1 you are flying since not all troops are the same 'height'. Dogs, for instance, are shorter than elves and so they would have a hard time attacking something at 3 in.
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although you would constantly have to state exactly how far in HB1 you are flying since not all troops are the same 'height'.
Why complicate the game needlessly? Most tabletop wargames intentionally disallow one-way LOS and/or close combat and at least in my worthless opinion, height bands in Chronopia fall into the exact same group: X is flying in HB 1, Y is on the ground in HB 1, hence both can engage each other. Who cares if theoretically X could hover just beyond Y's vertical reach assuming maximum height difference, since the whole concept of height bands only exists as an abstraction in the game mechanics, much in the same way as the perfectly flat gaming table is an abstraction of not-quite-so-flat terrain.
However, if a more detailed tracking of height bands is what one desires, it's trivial to simply increase the resolution used to track a unit's elevation. For instance, define one height band as 0.3", replace all occurences of "height band" in movement with "up to 10 height bands" and you're done.
Just my 0.02 €, which rounds down to 0 in Finland.
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although you would constantly have to state exactly how far in HB1 you are flying since not all troops are the same 'height'.
Why complicate the game needlessly?
Indeed, i do not wish to complicate this... The problem comes back to measuring the template attack and I think that the consensis so far is to lay it flat if sf is in HB 1. If that is the case, then yes, both sf and troops on table-top, and consequently HB 1, may beat each other silly.
However, then i would expect sf to climb to HB 2 and flame from there. Does the 2-d template become 3-d? Since template is of finite length, where do you measure it from since HB 2 is from 3 - 6 in? (template is appx 4 in long?) In essence, you have just moved the question up one HB...
However, if a more detailed tracking of height bands is what one desires, it's trivial to simply increase the resolution used to track a unit's elevation. For instance, define one height band as 0.3", replace all occurences of "height band" in movement with "up to 10 height bands" and you're done.
This i think would be one solution, though instead of the slightly sarcastic suggestion of 0.3" :P, i would change it to 1". But, I really would like to know how this type of thing would be decided in tourny play.
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However, then i would expect sf to climb to HB 2 and flame from there. Does the 2-d template become 3-d? Since template is of finite length, where do you measure it from since HB 2 is from 3 - 6 in? (template is appx 4 in long?) In essence, you have just moved the question up one HB...
This is not allowed, only placing the template in your own heightband is allowed, to flame models 3 inches tall (or smaller), you have to go to HB1, and then you can be attacked by other models in CC...
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@Nicodemus
Thats exactly my opinion as well :D
(We always played it that way)
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However, then i would expect sf to climb to HB 2 and flame from there. Does the 2-d template become 3-d?
From a strictly theoretical point of view (the rules as they stand are indeed quite explicit on templates staying inside height bands), the 3D representation of directly placed templates is an interesting question. If height bands were defined with enough resolution for the 3D shape of the template to matter, I think it would be fair to assume the vertical cross-section of a directly placed template to be nearly identical to the horizontal one, since they are typically unconstrained bursts of flame, powder or some other lightweight, rapidly expanding substance.
This i think would be one solution, though instead of the slightly sarcastic suggestion of 0.3" :P, i would change it to 1".
Powers of 10 are easy to multiply with, hence the example factor. <g> 1" height bands might work; UWZ uses them (though I personally would rather use Chronopia's 3" ones) and they'd certainly eliminate some of the extreme-case elevation-related artifacts... OTOH, 3" height bands are tall enough that a d4 is usually more than adequate for tracking a flyer's elevation and a tetrahedron is very unlikely to get accidentally reinitialized as a result of bumping the table. *shrug*
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From a strictly theoretical point of view (the rules as they stand are indeed quite explicit on templates staying inside height bands), the 3D representation of directly placed templates is an interesting question. If height bands were defined with enough resolution for the 3D shape of the template to matter, I think it would be fair to assume the vertical cross-section of a directly placed template to be nearly identical to the horizontal one, since they are typically unconstrained bursts of flame, powder or some other lightweight, rapidly expanding substance.
but, if you are playing like that (3-D), i don't understand why you wouldn't be able to flame across height bands... ??? It seems to me that the rules do state that you can't flame across height bands (from what people have posted) and that if you are at the same height band you just assume that the flyer who is breathing fire (or whatever the template's origin is) is at the same height in inches as the other flyer before the flame occurs. that is, of course, if you are not in hand-to-hand already. ex. hawks attack sf at HB 2 could be in a 360 degree radius around sf...
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Okay Folks - Just to clarify 100% this is how it works:
The Soul Flayer can only target models in THE SAME height band. This can be found within the Chronopia rule book:
"Directly placed Templated weapons cannot be targeted at Flyers outside the attackers Height band."
Models on the ground would be considered to be within height band 1, as height band 1 is hovering. However, all close combat models could attack the Soul Flayer in height band 1 - not just models with spears. If the Soul Flayer wants to avoid being vulnerable in close combat, it would have to go to height band 2.
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but, if you are playing like that (3-D), i don't understand why you wouldn't be able to flame across height bands... ???
As I said, it's strictly a theoretical issue. I'm perfectly happy with the abstraction that 3" height bands represent, BUT had I house-ruled the game to the point where I needed to worry about the exact 3D volume of a template, height bands as a discrete representation of a unit's elevation would exist no more. And if there were no height bands, there'd be no need for any restrictions other than those imposed by facing, special unit rules and common sense to where exactly you can aim a directly placed template.
Hmm, now that I think about it, allowing free 3D aim would make the Flame lance an interesting point-defence AA weapon. This calls for further experimentation - are there any Finns interested in a series of playtest evenings around?
It seems to me that the rules do state that you can't flame across height bands (from what people have posted)
Don't rely just on what people tell you; check the paragraph on directly placed templates.
and that if you are at the same height band you just assume that the flyer who is breathing fire (or whatever the template's origin is) is at the same height in inches as the other flyer before the flame occurs.
Or close enough (say within an inch or two), allowing for the inevitable altitude variations in muscle-powered flight, some degree of aiming, not-exactly-represented terrain and a multitude of other insignificant things that get abstracted away by the game mechanics in favour of a manageable gaming experience.
Plus most flyers are physically large models that take up most of a height band anyway, so slight elevation differences would matter even less.
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The wording probably was just intended so that the balefire couldn't be breathed upward into another height band...
And if you're playing elves, why don't you have Militia, Spearmen, or Archers? Or a Lotus Eater? If your Devout player is a fan of the Soul Flayer, introduce him to the Flying Dragonbane.
I have all of those, the problem comes in with the massive amount of wounds that the sf has (5 wounds). The flying dragonbane may do a maximum of 4 wounds and then be eaten. Milita, spearmen have to make a dread test before attacking the sf, both having about average leadership and neither have i been able to fully take down a sf (partly bad dice rolling, partly the strength of the weapons). I have used archers effectively against the sf, but that is only when the player makes the mistake of putting the sf closer than any of his other units.
I know there's a loophole so you can attack units further away...can't remember it though. It's something along the lines of if all enemies are X distance away or if the closest enemies are already in CC or something like that....
Can't look it up, at the University without a book.
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Who is "Excelsior"? Please identify youself. Your forum name is not appropriate.
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Dag, I believe you are thinking of the Targeting priorities rule (p69). I wouldn't consider those a loophole. :)
A missile troop always have to target the nearest model in that unit. They do not however have to target the closest unit with one exception
Fourth bullet point under Targeting Priorites page 69:
Missile weapon troops cannot choose to fire upon a more distant Unit if a visible, unpanicked enemy Unit is within 12 inches and within their arc of fire. They must fire at the "Closer Unit" as it poses an immediate threat to their safety.
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Who is "Excelsior"? Please identify youself. Your forum name is not appropriate.
I wondered if it was Jon with a new handle so he could be ID'd as a rep of the company. Guess not.
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Jon is out today.
As for the debate, I apologize if I muddied the waters. The CM revision to flight is in my head and I default to it. How about I post that revision and you use it instead?
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That would be great! Seems like a lot of the rules for the new book are already finished.... ;D
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I will start a new thread tonight for it.
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Jon is out today.
As for the debate, I apologize if I muddied the waters. The CM revision to flight is in my head and I default to it. How about I post that revision and you use it instead?
Ah gee whiz - I guess if we gotta ;D
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OK, done. This should streamline things a lot. Thanks to the playtestors for their invaluable input. You know who you are.
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Thanks Thom
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NP- MP
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Latin and Greek phrases
Definition of: excelsior
excelsior: Higher; more elevated.
I thought it would be an awesome user name. ;D
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True, I agree. But this helps avoid confusion. The actual latin is "ever upwards", which is used by the state of NY on their flag and by Stan Lee in his signature, where I first caught on.
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um... i agree with firstborn in his response to the new rules and it is basically a better representation of my earlier question. :P (side note, engineers are not good at this whole 'talking' thing so sorry if i sound rude...)
from firstborn:
'Soul Flayer Balefire Template Attack:
With these new rules, how will the Soul Flayer Balefire Template Attack work? Do you simply substract the models altitude as inches off the template? Where do you have to measure the template from? I could see some abuse if players simply measure the template from the base of the Soulflayer and point it straight down.
The real un-balance with this would be if the Soul Flayer could fly over the board, using Balefire on your non-polearm close combat troops, and wipe them all out without fear of retaliation.
Could you please clarify this?'
thoughts?
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With these new rules, how will the Soul Flayer Balefire Template Attack work? Do you simply substract the models altitude as inches off the template? Where do you have to measure the template from? I could see some abuse if players simply measure the template from the base of the Soulflayer and point it straight down.
The balefire attack template (or any template weapon for that matter) does not generally work as effectively against ground-based targets as it does when they too are ground-based. Let's look at how.
Assume a SF is flying six inches above the table. If she were to attack at an opponent directly below her the template would hit however the area of affect is the width of the templates far end only. The cone aspect doesn't come into play.
If the targets were forward of the SF, you would measure the distance to the targets and add the altitude (in this case 6"). Let's assume the template is 7" long. If the opponents are four inches in front of the SF she could not breathe on them. (4" + 6"=10 inches actual).
Using this method the SF can only affect soldiers on the ground if they are up to 1" forward of her position. As the template is narrow chances are only one soldier will be affected.
Let's further this example. If she were only 3" in the air, she could hit models up to 4" away. How many models are affected? Measure the template.
If a warband is one inch in front of a flying SF at altitude 3, that would mean the models under the template would be under the final three inches of the template (7" template- 4" distance (3"altitude+1" lateral) leaves 3" of template. It's fairly simple and quite intuitive. In the end, a template attack works best when used against a target(s) in the same plane, be it ground-based or airborne.
As for where the measuring occurs, it is determined by the edge of the models base.
The real un-balance with this would be if the Soul Flayer could fly over the board, using Balefire on your non-polearm close combat troops, and wipe them all out without fear of retaliation.
If you do the math, the affectiveness of a balefire fly-by is not very affective at all as to get the maximum affect from the template it would need to be low enough to be counter attacked.