Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Talaminiatures => Announcements => Topic started by: joshuaslater on October 18, 2006, 11:29:36 AM
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I just received word that Southern Exposure is no more. We will have to meet at their other cons, and consider our options for gaming elsewhere. I'm wondering what the rental fee for a single conference room at that hotel is anyway. I think if the Double Exposure people can get 40$ out of us, why wouldn't we pay that and not have the room to ourselves? Think of the table space. A real tourney, where I would have to do the math......hm.
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Why is SE no more?
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Why is SE no more?
Official reason?
as posted on the Double Exposure Forum:
Sad News for South Jersey...
« on: Yesterday at 01:40:48 PM »
Folks,
It is with sadness that we at Double Exposure have decided to close our Southern Exposure convention in Cherry Hill. We will not be running it again next year.
The decision comes down to two factors:
1) We do not have the support system in the Philadelphia/South Jersey area for a regional convention. Many who used to run the predecessors of Southern Exposure disappeared, and the grass roots support of the convention disappeared with them.
2) Double Exposure's staff is stretched thin enough by having to run two major conventions a year - while three Southern Exposures fulfilled an obligation during a troubled situation, that obligation is now over, and we've decided to focus on the other events that we built.
We'd like to thank everyone who came to SEIII and who enjoyed this convention for three years; we hope to see you at future Double Exposure conventions.
>>>Vinny
Unofficial reason? See #1. The ones they relied on to run it/take care of getting things up an running that far south (which would be my Ex-wife and I) are no longer are part of Double Exposure for various reasons... and it is not a money-making show for them, I think.
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We will have to meet at their other cons, and consider our options for gaming elsewhere. I'm wondering what the rental fee for a single conference room at that hotel is anyway. I think if the Double Exposure people can get 40$ out of us, why wouldn't we pay that and not have the room to ourselves? Think of the table space. A real tourney, where I would have to do the math......hm.
Very doable. Veeeeeerrrry doable.
Josh, let me know when you wanna plot this one out. I said I'd help you plan it out before and I stand bymy statement. :)
Renting space at a hotel is not a difficult thing. The difficult thing is price.
http://www.scanticonvalleyforge.com/
Down the road (hour) from me and roughly 40 from you and the Philly crowd. Gettysburg Room looks like the size we'd need for Warzone and Chrono.
THe other is Sheraton Park Ridge
http://www.starwoodhotels.com/sheraton/property/meetings/index.html?propertyID=97505
The Independance rooms seem to suit our needs too.
Or we can always hold something near the Airport for those out-of-towners... What do you guys think?
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Either one will work for me. I work in that area so I could help set up any arrangements that need taken care of. The Sheraton has a nice spotrs bar as well ;D
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Just let us know with enough warning so we can plan for whatever you want to run. I'am sure we can all help in one way or another to pull it off.
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John, you know you can count on me for help. Let me know.
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Again, let me know what sort of terrain VeezCon(tm) can supply and we will do so (along with the requisite paperwork).
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@dmcgee1: Yep, I know. And now Josh does too.
@veez: Ha! Most assuredly... though the next order might require a technician to com along (yes that means taking a trip, Marine. ;) )
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so ends an era.
years ago shorecon was one the best cons to go to. A great 3 - 4 years to be a gamer.
Sad how it ended up.
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Shorecon was awesome back in the day. The one year, they had Battlebots, gamer celebrities, Gwar was demoing their mini's game. The dealler room was HUGE! Like, an entire ballroom huge! While I understand WHY Double Exposure is killing it off, and all the **** that went down that killed off Shorecon, DE should really have tried to build back those bridges, and make it a major con again, since it was pretty much the Gencon of the east coast.
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Depending on how far of a drive you wanted to make, you might want to look at holding a tournament at Fat Cats Comics and Games in Downingtown http://www.fatcatcomics.biz/. I'm sure the cost per player would be pretty low and they have a pretty big sized gaming area. Plus there's already terrain at the store.
Pete
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When I stop hacking up phlegm resembling something from the Dark Legion I'll get to work on laying down some plans, makin' the phone calls, consulting Archer and everyone here, and trying to find a space that works equally inconvenient to everyone! Thanks for the suggestions so far. I think our fires were stoked from the last con, as it was nice to get together. Having our own space and event would be even more fun. I'm thinking beer and food too.
Pete, nice to have you aboard. Looking forward to more Chronopia and the Pirates game too.
Cheers.
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I might be able to go if it were in the area( philly, valley forge, montgomery county, and bucks County)
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Would be nice to plan a 2-day miniatures event about the time that SE used to be to break up the long period of time between Cons.
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I'd go to that con.
I like going to gaming cons.
they are fun to go to.
I might even have my figs painted by then, who knows?
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Shorecon was awesome back in the day. The one year, they had Battlebots, gamer celebrities, Gwar was demoing their mini's game. The dealler room was HUGE! Like, an entire ballroom huge! While I understand WHY Double Exposure is killing it off, and all the **** that went down that killed off Shorecon, DE should really have tried to build back those bridges, and make it a major con again, since it was pretty much the Gencon of the east coast.
Steve,
When I run into one of the old group of organizers, I will tell them all the good feelings about those shows.
The thing with DE is several things... of which no one really has control over. From my observations....
1) Energy and Enthusiasm. The Folks at Double Exposure used to have a ton of it back in the day- Any of you guys remember Dexcons 2-6? And one of the things I have noticed is they tend to run in cycles of such. Uber-stressing of personnell, too much on their plate, too much real life intruding.
Vinny does like doing these events- however he is afflicted with a bit of micromanage and an unending need to run a Grand Event of a show. Dexcon is supposed to be a Flagship show, with lots of vendors, industry types and diverse games represented. Unfortunately, the vision of the Grand Event has taken a hit and I think he might have lost his way a bit.
And like most visionary types, does not like dissent against visions as to how it should work nor does he listen to many other bits of advice outside a select few. Which is sad. He really is a very nice guy and really frickin' smart... just a touch blind to the reasons things are failing.
2) Emphasis on LARP. DE started out as a LARP group and expanded their efforts into standard gaming conventions. And for a long time, they rocked at it. Unfortunately, the emphasis on all facets seems to have lessened in favor of the LARP adherents. Don't get me wrong- LARPing can be and is alotta fun (hell- I happen to play a Tremere Vampire in One World By Night's World of Darkness www.owbn.org (http://www.owbn.org)) but it is not the be-all/end-all of convention attendance.
I've been of the opinon at one point that Mini's were the way to go- lost that opinion years ago as I got to understand more of how the entire process of convention construction was done (though the old Warfaires I ran seemed to do ok). Diversity is key in a local event, with emphasis placed on specific areas as you grow and the numbers support such emphasis.
Right now (and for the last few shows), LARP Lobbyists in the staff are holding the power/influence and that is not likely to change, unless something occurs to force that to do so.
And I don't see it.
3) Crony-ism. The other problem DE is experiencing right now is cronyism. With the LARP faction having the most influence and the history of the group being what it is, a number of folks in the DE-created and own LARP have favored status with some of the bigger fish in the company hierarchy. And that is not going to change. The Avatar system (their LARP rules), while fun, is floundering. From what I have heard/been told, its recent revision helped some but the problem of cronyism and a handful of folks holding all the power/influence is holding the system/company down for the whipping that reality is giving it.
If there is one thing I learned from what happened to my old man with his fire-protection business- its business should be kept seperate of friendships and dissenting opipnins heard. and not stifled/driven away It *HAS* to be that way... DE is a business run by a group of friends... and the head of it needs to see what is happening to his orginization before it self-destructs.
Again.
This might seem like sour grapes... and maybe it is a little. But it is my opinion, which is something I am allowed to have. I sincerely wish Vinny and Double Exposure well hope they can overcome the self-inflicted wounds... but unless things drasticly change and some coffe gets smelled in a hurry, it won't be around in a year./18 months. And that clock began ticking not that long ago.
My few cents on the matter.
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3) Crony-ism. The other problem DE is experiencing right now is cronyism. With the LARP faction having the most influence and the history of the group being what it is, a number of folks in the DE-created and own LARP have favored status with some of the bigger fish in the company hierarchy. And that is not going to change. The Avatar system (their LARP rules), while fun, is floundering. From what I have heard/been told, its recent revision helped some but the problem of cronyism and a handful of folks holding all the power/influence is holding the system/company down for the whipping that reality is giving it.
If there is one thing I learned from what happened to my old man with his fire-protection business- its business should be kept seperate of friendships and dissenting opipnins heard. and not stifled/driven away It *HAS* to be that way... DE is a business run by a group of friends... and the head of it needs to see what is happening to his orginization before it self-destructs.
Again.
This might seem like sour grapes... and maybe it is a little. But it is my opinion, which is something I am allowed to have. I sincerely wish Vinny and Double Exposure well hope they can overcome the self-inflicted wounds... but unless things drasticly change and some coffe gets smelled in a hurry, it won't be around in a year./18 months. And that clock began ticking not that long ago.
My few cents on the matter.
You can say that again. The reason I, and several others quit Avatar stuff was that the same group of people were the center of attention ALL the time. It came to the point where I had to decide if it was worth 30 bucks, plus hotel, to just sit around while a handful of people got all the important plot bits. It's gotten a little better recently, and I'm willing to give it another go, but I don't have high hopes.
Really though, in 2000, shorecon had a firckin' Battlebots tourny! Battlebots!! like, the real deal!
It's sad that it fell so low and had to die out on such a low note.
(Although the Chronopia tourney ROCKED!)
It makes me sad that Wild Gazebo went under too.
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Wild Gazebo:
I had really hoped they stayed with the one day con concept they started with.
the day was pack with all kind of games to play the event was cheap as hell and it was loads of fun.
My friends and I loved it.
Sadly it seems the local gaming community doesnt have enough steam for the 3 day con's any more.
as for Crony-ism and larps...sadly they go hand in hand. I've been in many a larp and I see it all the time.
This and some really bad rules judges have killed more then well started larp before its time. It has just driven me more into the open arms of miniature god "PEWTER".
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Wild Gazebo:
I had really hoped they stayed with the one day con concept they started with.
the day was pack with all kind of games to play the event was cheap as hell and it was loads of fun.
My friends and I loved it.
Sadly it seems the local gaming community doesnt have enough steam for the 3 day con's any more.
as for Crony-ism and larps...sadly they go hand in hand. I've been in many a larp and I see it all the time.
This and some really bad rules judges have killed more then well started larp before its time. It has just driven me more into the open arms of miniature god "PEWTER".
WG went under due to mismanagement and the fact that their hatred of all things DE could not sustain them. IIRC, their LARP rules were a rip of the DE system (to some degree) and some of the bile they spewed was a bit rediculous in private. Even I "earned" some, despite my being supportive of their efforts and neutral in the disagreement the two orgs had- it predated me and I wanted nothing to do with it.
Go figure.
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This and some really bad rules judges have killed more then well started larp before its time. It has just driven me more into the open arms of miniature god "PEWTER".
PEWTER is your friend. Pewter never judges you. Pewter never complains that your costume is period enough. Pewter just sits there and loves you in its own quiet way.
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All hail PEWTER!
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Pewter never tells you about how their boffer style is based of "Real Secret Ninja Skills"
Pewter never metagames.
Pewter never asks you to play "Rock Paper Scissors"
Pewter never makes a 16th level Ranger/Fighter/Monk/Assassin/Pirate to destroy your character.
Pewter never tries to sell you a new edition of it's game every 2 years...
... oh wait...
*eyes GW*
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Pewter never tells you about how their boffer style is based of "Real Secret Ninja Skills"
Pewter never metagames.
Pewter never asks you to play "Rock Paper Scissors"
Pewter never makes a 16th level Ranger/Fighter/Monk/Assassin/Pirate to destroy your character.
Pewter never tries to sell you a new edition of it's game every 2 years...
... oh wait...
*eyes GW*
This is scary
I have experienced all this
including boffer style is based off "Real Secret Ninja Skills"
thank goodness PEWTER has come into my life....start drawing jack Chick style comic strips about the God PEWTER :P
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I think the best was:
"A Florentine style fighter with a rapier and a dagger could EASILY kill a bunch of roman legionaires."
Which was said to two fellows with degrees in History.
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Good thing noone was standing around this guy playing live action Star Trek:
"Captain our scanners are reading an negative space where a life should be."
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Good thing noone was standing around this guy playing live action Star Trek:
"Captain our scanners are reading an negative space where a life should be."
LOL
man its like that sometimes with some folks
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It's almost as if he thought all combat was like D20 combat. Everyone goes in their turn, and if I reduce you to 0hp, you'r dead. Instead of ****ed off and wielding a fancy meat cleaver.
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I think Double Exposure continues to experience what the rest of the gaming industry is expriencing - a shrinking market.
As the players grow older and spend more time and money on other things, there are fewer and fewer new gamers to take the place of the older ones. I know I am one of them - married, kids, no time or money now to play. Without a sustainable market of new players, buying the games and attending the conventions, the cons will continue to shrink until companies like DE can no longer justify the expense to run conventions.
I don't have a solution unfortunately, other than the illegal drugs type - give it free, get em hooked, get their friends hooked so they aren't alone, then charge them all when they get addicted. Sounds terrible, however the choices of entertainment for the younger generations today makes RPGs and Miniature games something that requires effort. Conventions are the same wy - you have to pay $30, plus hotel room, and drive out there versus booting up the computer and blasting away digital images.
I'm not sure how the gaming convention companies change the perception of fun / lack of fun to attract players again, without relying on older gamers getting their kids involved.
I recall ShoreCon when it was actually at the shore as being loads of fun. After a while, gaming conventions were more a social gathering for me to see people I only saw once or twice a year. Gotta get back to the fun and wonder and anticipation that drove us all to look forward to the conventions.
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Well spoke. We're archaic now. I'm going to see if my thirteen year old nephew can get into Chronopia, but I don't see young players joining the ranks with all the other options out there.
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Well spoke. We're archaic now. I'm going to see if my thirteen year old nephew can get into Chronopia, but I don't see young players joining the ranks with all the other options out there.
Of course not. There are no cheat codes for miniatures games.. You have to take your whipping like a < insert correct noun>. If you ask a video gamer what strategy is theyll say " Well in the book it says to do this." I play both miniatures and videos games and the only book I ever brought to help is one for Final Fantasy years ago.
Ill always play board, miniature and other TTGs for the human interaction and the strategy involved. My son likes it <UWZ> because all the "older" people play as well as it gives us something to do together that is NOT football related.
Alas UWZ and Chronopia dont offer a quick fix AND it requires you to read and there is no reset button and it requires social skills that are sadly lacking in our "younger" generation ;D
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I think the answer to the cons thing is that they will do what we are planning to do and go grass roots.
Frankly, the cons I went to growing up were all done by amateurs. They would take their profits and donate them to charities.
Not having gone to any of the professional cons other than GenCon once I'm not sure how these rate.
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I must say that I must partly disagree..
the majority of new players is GW, but a lot go to warmaschine, for example, or others.
there is (at least here) quite a big number playing at least TT..
I think most people who play on the net would not have played (&collected&painted) TT anyway.
the persons suitible for TT are a different kind of people.. most can´t stand WoW, for example.
It is a difference in style.. not only investing time, but REALLY doing something. thats a different kind of person.
I assume actual TT losses to online games quite small (as in contrast to RPG, which is really getting out of style..)
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I found the easiest way to get younger players it to stress the "fun" of the game, rather then the "You must win at all costs"
I played 40k at a store with some youngish kids just getting into it, and there was one veteran who would just paste 'em with his Blood Angels.
I on the other hand, was trying to show them that the came could be fun, and wasn't just about beating the snot out of the other guy.
Tabletop face-to-face games offer stuff that Halo 2 really doesn't. Narative campaigns, joking across the table, and just generally relaxing and having fun without having to think about your "player rating" going down.
It's why I don't like GWs competative Campaign rules. They take something that should be fun, but they allow the uber-competative players to run roughshod over the guys who just want to sit around and laugh about a fictional Gretchin officer. With the exception of Blood Bowl, every other game encourages powergaming and rules bending.
If you start up a narative campaign, where losing doesn't mean you're down and out, you'll see younger players show up just because they see you having fun, and they want to have fun too.
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Thats it.. i'm moving to Germany! Aldrien, how far are you from Mayen/Monreal?
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Thats it.. i'm moving to Germany! Aldrien, how far are you from Mayen/Monreal?
great! I can´t wait to play you!
Its only 70 km!
(-> you speek about here, right: http://www.monreal-eifel.de/home.html ?)
cu! :) ;)
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Thats it, exactly. i know i'll be there next year (w/out minis.. sadly..) I have relatives there, so, kinda obligated to go over occasionally... though, i'm sure i can find an excuse to go play with pewter, if you have an army i can borrow... ;)
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great!!!
lets have a game! (even though my armys are not exactly pewter, for the majority...)
drop me a email or a PM if you really have the chance to play and we will make it happen!
(-> I will play capitiol and you can do bauhaus, for a strange mirror world-feeling.. :D)
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Oh I agree with the comparrisons. The trouble is, how do you market the benefits of table top gaming to the general public? How do you get younger generations to try something that doesn't require a keyboard or TV remote?
I guess my questions are somewhat rhetorical because this subject has probably been hashed to death in another thread somewhere. I just hope people smarter than me can figure it out and get "butts in seats" at the local conventions. The bigger the event, the more fun I have, feeling like I'm part of something big.
Now if only the non-gaming wife would agree....?
I found the easiest way to get younger players it to stress the "fun" of the game, rather then the "You must win at all costs"
I played 40k at a store with some youngish kids just getting into it, and there was one veteran who would just paste 'em with his Blood Angels.
I on the other hand, was trying to show them that the came could be fun, and wasn't just about beating the snot out of the other guy.
Tabletop face-to-face games offer stuff that Halo 2 really doesn't. Narative campaigns, joking across the table, and just generally relaxing and having fun without having to think about your "player rating" going down.
It's why I don't like GWs competative Campaign rules. They take something that should be fun, but they allow the uber-competative players to run roughshod over the guys who just want to sit around and laugh about a fictional Gretchin officer. With the exception of Blood Bowl, every other game encourages powergaming and rules bending.
If you start up a narative campaign, where losing doesn't mean you're down and out, you'll see younger players show up just because they see you having fun, and they want to have fun too.
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True. The other problem is that the game does not offer much in the way of instant gratification. If you are a miniatures person, chances are there is as much fun (if not more) in the owning and converting and painting as there is in the playing.
To counter this I think, Mongoose is going to pre-painted figs. They are not doing they secret box hope you get what you need WizKidz formula-you will get to pick and choose what you want. Still though, a part of me says why not just buy those Heros of Valor army sets and play with them.
Still-I obsess over doing up my own figs where as other people probably just happy to be able to grab the figs, throw down and play.
Point is, and of all organizations, GW is actually good about pushing this, there is more to the hobby than just playing.
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As much as I don't support GW, they do keep people into models. They're not entirely evil, maybe just a bit.
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As a young player, i am still in high school, the social interaction is why I love to play miniatures games. It helps me with the social skills that I lack b/c of my ADD.
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Let me know if you want to get a game in. We've got three players in Philly.
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3 and counting... cherry hill ist that far away! (and i'm about to get a chronopia army..)
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Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Excellent.
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Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Excellent.
*Sigh*
Thanatos looked up from his Scrying dish. "Evil Laughter.... that needs to be removed from the body it resides in. How quaint..." Stepping over to a caged bird, he quickly scrawled a note and attacked it to the leg of the messenger bird in a tube. "Fly fast to Sigfreid, little one... we have a culling to perform."
"A drastic culling..."
I have a box of First Born Pain for you, Josh.
WHenever you want to venture up to Reading, its here... all 1974 points of them. One more Swordsman needs to be painted for 2k, if needed to crush your army like a grape. :) :)
All seriousness... its a good thing more players are coming into the fold. With Prince August selling old stock and the Italians making figs still... life is good to be a Chrono player.
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It may be getting better soon.....
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Let me know if you want to get a game in. We've got three players in Philly.
Let's see;
joshuaslater
wmeredith
Dalton
jjdodger
PhillySniper
Archer
Luckyone
NinjaCat
Marc Cram
gwingfan
oh, yeah...
ME!
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Let me know if you want to get a game in. We've got three players in Philly.
Let's see;
joshuaslater
wmeredith
Dalton
jjdodger
PhillySniper
Archer
Luckyone
NinjaCat
Marc Cram
gwingfan
oh, yeah...
ME!
Send me A PM if anybody wants to start a monthly game in the philly area.
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Don't let Archer's First Born scare you. Back in the day my Obsidian Serpents pasted the pale fleshers.
"We eat First Born meat!"
Damn its been a long time since I played.
Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Excellent.
*Sigh*
Thanatos looked up from his Scrying dish. "Evil Laughter.... that needs to be removed from the body it resides in. How quaint..." Stepping over to a caged bird, he quickly scrawled a note and attacked it to the leg of the messenger bird in a tube. "Fly fast to Sigfreid, little one... we have a culling to perform."
"A drastic culling..."
I have a box of First Born Pain for you, Josh.
WHenever you want to venture up to Reading, its here... all 1974 points of them. One more Swordsman needs to be painted for 2k, if needed to crush your army like a grape. :) :)
All seriousness... its a good thing more players are coming into the fold. With Prince August selling old stock and the Italians making figs still... life is good to be a Chrono player.
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Don't let Archer's First Born scare you. Back in the day my Obsidian Serpents pasted the pale fleshers.
"We eat First Born meat!"
Damn its been a long time since I played.
Yes it has... and its no fault but your own there, fella. I've offered... and you know all you had to do was call when you had time. ;) If you are free Saturday, I'm joining McGee and the Philly crew for a UWZ throwdown. I can bring a spare army, your banes or one of the others can lend you one..
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Whatever Archer;
I seem to remember that you owe someone a rematch. Almost got you butt kicked by a bunch of pygmies.