Author Topic: Dwarves second edition too weak?  (Read 17911 times)

Offline Horned God

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Re: Dwarves second edition too weak?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2015, 06:06:35 PM »
Let me clarify. I meant for those who don't own an impaler and don't want to have it in their army list. I was going to beef up the stats for the Vulture Marksman and in doing so, the dwarf force would no longer have the Impaler in the army list.

In other words, you can't use the Impaler but your marksman has 3 wounds and the crossbow has the same 21 inch range (so you can't reach farther) but you do x2 damage. It is an increase and yes it also means the Vulture Marksman would cost more too. In this way he is a bit more survivable and a bit more deadly but not that much more, and doesn't have the disadvantage of the Impaler, nor the extremely long range, nor the higher damage.

It was just a idea. It of course, would be an optional idea if I worked it out put an appropriate cost adjustment on the marksman.

It boils down to how much is a Wound worth and how much x2 damage is worth.

Offline Buzzu

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Re: Dwarves second edition too weak?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2015, 06:02:39 AM »
Ok... I really don't know how much a wound more can cost, considering some indecent unbalanced cost of the SOK berserkers, which is 52 points for 1 wound only per model, when at the same cost you got someone in the other armies who got two (ogre infantry, for instance). Someone could say: ok, but even the unliving of SOK army got two wounds each, and they only cost 18 AP... Misteries.

Anyway, if you want something to reason about, you should nknow that beneath the Wird spells, there are two who give exactly what you're talking about.
Blessing of the goddess (15 points) gives an extra wound to a model, and Sword of Gwrnach (10 points) gives a +1 and x1 damage.

Assuming you're giving this two "boosts" to the vulture marksman, you could charge it those 25 points more, bringing him to a cost of 92 AP. Which is, in my opinion, quite correct, if compared to other heroes.

Anyway... I always get trapped in considerations about the cost of one model or another, but there are factors that you always forget to consider. Just to give you an example... swamp goblin spearmen cost 15 AP each, while elven militia 13 AP. And if you look at the stats, militiamen are stronger than goblins. So? Then, you consider that the composition is different, letting you the chance of a little more flexibility in fielding a WB of goblins; goblins are smaller and they have a shield, so they give a -2 to the enemy RC, and they can have a novice shaman attached to the WB. And you understand why they cost a little more even if they're weaker...
I imagine that the units I can't undestand the cost should be played in a way I still have to learn; a way that in the hands of an expert player could demonstrate that they're worthy of that expense.
And more than this, I think we all should play different and various scenarios to appreciate properly the ability of the different units.
Few years ago, I decided that my SOK warriors should be reduced in their cost because my friends NEVER played with the climate effects and always in an open battlefield, so my ability of ICE warrior and FOREST warrior were completely unuseful, and I always found my army down numbered because of the high cost of my units.
But it's not by reasoning like this that you have fun. So I decided to compel my friend to use some different scenario settings: roll for climate effects, and adding some forest on the field. I never won against him, but it's easy to win when you can put a line of goblin archers and orc archers, shooting to naked people on a plain field... :( let's fight in a forest, and see if he wins so easy again! ;)

Offline Horned God

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Re: Dwarves second edition too weak?
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2015, 06:06:17 PM »
I made a file that 5 pages and starts with the basics of the profile, but then goes on to cost out Damage, Special Rules abilities, template weapons, etc. Ultimately as long as all players/factions use the same system it really does not matter. To be honest games like this should have an open-point system. When we discuss the points we should be discussing how much a given option costs. Like how much should a Wound cost? Not the total cost of a model. When you play (and thus playtest) your not playtesting the cost of a model but rather individual elements of that models profile cost. Should Stealth cost more? how effective was it in the game, and other questions should be asked.

I set each Wound point to 4 points each, but that is the beauty of feedback and discussion. Perhaps someone things it should cost a LOT more, or just a little more, like 5 points. Some abilities, like Unseen Assailant are more useful for more expensive models so they should be a percentage of the total cost of the model. Say +20, +25 or +35% whereas most other things only need a standard cost. Instead of 'reverse' engineer just create a point system and agree to repoint everything and then you have the control over it as a group of players. It also helps the game live longer and for more people. The original point system you see in the 2e and 1e books starts with a profile base line. You get X stats for a base cost. I set that at 0 (zero) but a corresponding rule says 'minimum cost for a model 5 points' so you must then spend 5 points on the model but that means buying your damage and other basic elements. You could then end up with a 10 or 11 point 'goblin' if you wanted.

The original systems got some low points because they used a ratio. You get X points (e.g. 5 points) to distribute among X stats for 1 point cost. So you could add +1 CC, +3 LD, and +1 ST all for the Point Cost of only 1 point. Whereas, other things like being Immune to Panic would be normal whole points, like +5 points a model.

For things like Jungle Warrior I figure 1 point a model is great. It is not always useful. To make this more generic called it Terrain Specialist (type) so you can have Terrain Specialist (Jungle) but one thing I did not like about Chronopia was it used terms like (Forest) and (Jungle) and yet they are in game terms the same benefit but still players would want to hinge on the different terms and so I found that to be un-necessary. I would go with: Rough Terrain (Foliage) and Rough Terrain (Solid) or some other similar terms so it means anything living (like forest, jungle, etc) or anything non-living like rocks, sand, rubble, etc.

If someone did feel this is more useful, it is a 2 point cost per model ability.

In this way I basically just created a point system. In the end, if there is official factions and a 'create your own hero' or model type system (such as you see in the Heroes of the Solar System approach we find in Warzone Resurrection) then the official models should use the same point system. I don't want my custom guy to pay 10 points for +1 Wound and the official ones to only pay +5 points per Wound.

With the system below I started with the bare minimum stat, lowest I saw in the game so you buy upward. I could have set it a bit higher and then you could buy downward (ie 10 armor base, but for each point below that you get 1 point back to spend, but you still have that 5 point minimum cost per model

Chronopia Point System

   To determine the point cost of a model start with its base line, and add to that base line thus increasing the cost of the model. The base line below costs 5 points, and a model cannot cost less than 5 points per model even with additions to the model that would reduce the total below five. If I were going to adjust the base profile I'd have set the MV to 3, ST to 4, and Armor to 14 (slightly above the minimum for these values) since most models will have at least that. Ultimately, the goal is to keep a model's cost around 20 to 30 points, and 10 to 20 if a 'cheap' troop, but if the models are all using the same, if the 'norm' cost goes up to 30 to 40 a model and 20 to 30 for 'cheap' it would still be proportionally the same result and thus would not matter. You'd simply get use to playing with a higher 'base'. Instead of 1000 points, you may play with 1500 and you'd still be playing with the same model count in your force. So you should break through the mentality of seeing that models 'must' be of certain ranges of points to 'look right'.

Base Line                              
CC   RC   PW   LD   AC   WD   ST   MV   AR   DEF   SZ   PC
8     8   10   10   2   1   3   2   12   0*   Assigned*   0*

Each point of CC, RC, PW, LD, ST, AR and DEF costs +1 point cost per +1 point raised.
Each point of MV costs +2 points
Each point of WD costs +4 points
Each point of AC costs  +5 points

* The SZ category is assigned by the WYSIWYG principle, and the designer should use other models as a guide. The designer  
    should use logical consistency when determining Size.

* In the case of DEF, raising it one point means –1 DEF, -2 DEF, and so on, so you get +1 DEF its –1 point cost for the model.

* The base cost for all models is 0 points, but there is also a minimum cost of 5 points, therefore no model can cost less than 5.

* If the base line is subtracted from, subtract a like amount of points it costs to buy that attribute. For example, a model that has a   1 MV gains –2 point cost, and a model that has an ST 2, gains –1 point. The negative points are subtracted from the overall cost of the model, but keep in mind there is a minimum cost of 5 points per model.

Now, in the end, I'm going to redo this system soon enough, and anyone is free to take it and tweak and keep in mind my goal was never to make it try and exactly reverse engineer the 'official' point system. I did not care if I did that since I could just take this approach, and yes I did largely reverse engineer it, but in the end just like when I saw how the new WZR point system worked out I didn't like that much. I wanted more control over it and not accept what I felt were oddball decisions. How did I do this? I took an Excel sheet and broke it down by its elements, and after going about 30 units the math worked out, but again, after doing all that I didn't like how that system assigned points. So I choose not use it.

With Chronopia 2e point system, I liked it much more, but still wanted that control and freedom that I as a gamer deserve so I just decided as long as it is open and all players can see and when you do a unit you can have a little math sheet to show how and why it costs what it does. Put that in the back of the book and thus if there is any head scratching you can just look it up. That is 'how to do it right'.

So to empower yourselves as gamers, create and post a point system, don't wait for someone else to do it. If it is not perfect, that is why you discuss individual elements of it and their cost. Consensus decisions can settle most of it. And yes some decisions simply need to be made and are going to be arbitrary starting points.

Just like when I was faced with how to point cost a template attack. For weapons. You buy Range, and Damage separately, any additional effects you then buy like does the attack use a Template and if so it is based on the size/type of template. If there are little options, like 'fire based' damage that too is another little effect you buy. Some options might be 0 cost if they truly don't have a huge game effect and are really like lateral shifts.

For models with two weapons. I used a concept like you find in Mutants and Masterminds. When you attack your model only uses one type of attack or weapon, so you don't spend points on buying 3 types of wepaons and add them all up. Instead you pay for the highest cost one, and for 1 point you can use what amounts to an Alternative Power or alternative weapon attack and thus having access to the other 2 attacks only costs 2 points. Say the most expensive weapon attack was 11 points and you had two other weapons which might cost 7 and 9 points normally you'd only spend 11 + 2 = 13 points for those three attacks. In MnM it is called an alternative power you attach to a main power effect. I simply applied that concept to a miniature wargame.

Point is, in the end you can slap some stats on a model and know that all the other models you face will use the same point system.

In the end, when/if a new edition of Chronopia comes out, I know for a fact someone might read this so go look at Warlord, and in that game you'll find not a full point system but at least a rudimentary version. Whomever 'officially' comes out with the new one, please do something like that (as a minimum)

« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 05:31:31 AM by Horned God »

Offline Horned God

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Re: Dwarves second edition too weak?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2015, 04:20:23 PM »
I'll send my 5 page point system to the Chronopia world. Keep in mind I am not trying to reverse engineer the current system, since I was just going to repoint all the units but they'd all use this same point system (and thus it should be balanced. I was not going to adjust any unit stats, just re-cost them, and furthermore. It is open to playtesting elements of it. Most of it is fine, but some options might need tweeking. Perhaps it needs to adjust the base cost minimum for models to 8 points, or a give option should be 4 or 5 points instead of the 3 that is listed.

That means look it over and if you find something you think needs adjusting make a case and give some sound reasons. Or use the system and playtest it a bit. If you think the point totals come out to more than you'd like to see, (though they will do that throughout the whole game) then by using concepts like ratios it can be made to generate lower point cost models, but I like whole points. Another option is to use fractions of a point or some other concept like that.

It just takes adjusting your thinking a bit when you use a new system. But the best part is, you know why something cost what it does and where something might need tweaking. It gives YOU control for you group. Make the system your own. I created it to let everyone have and use. So if you do like it and want to adjust little bits of it, post so we can update and develop it. I think the best way to develop a truly sound point system is by consensus from the very people who will actually use it, you the gamers.

When I rework it, I was going to make it a general system. I started doing this already. I made it for both warzone and chronopia as a single point system since many options overlap. Though technically each game does have unique bits. For example, there is Jungle Warrior and Terrain Specialist (Jungle) but each is set to 1 point.

The 5 pages I have I consider 99% done, and ready for testing out and most of it it stand up, but you (again) might adjust a value here or there. Giving feedback will help that process.

It is for Chronopia 2e. I didn't really do this for 1e, and for warzone I used UWZ, but that is a separate effort, not in this file.