Author Topic: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -  (Read 7870 times)

Offline Archer

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2010, 06:47:10 AM »
This discussion i now leaving the realm of FAQ, and is now generating discussion on how to best make a change to what is, otherwise, a rule in need of change.

Would a moderater be kind enough to move this thread to the Warzone thread under Game Questions?

I apologize for discussing my opinions in he FAQ section.  I should have merely stated that the issue is FAQ'd. and until such a time as that is officially changed, then that is the way it is.

Dave- I'm just tired of correcting this damn issue is all and I really wish it would be changed/clarified already so the question might stop cropping up.

No hate or discontent here.  Just tired.
John "Archer" Tinney

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Offline Archer

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2010, 07:12:13 AM »
And cranky. :P

Sorry!
John "Archer" Tinney

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"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2010, 07:20:51 AM »
It is fine, but keep in mind that some people are new to the UWZ edition , and can sometimes come to the problem on their own so they post here. Since the forum posts and FAQ leave some questions to be answered...well, a curious person will start a thread, just like i did (i switched to it recently from 1st ed.).

It's not to harass those who already debated the idea  ;), especially not the cranky ones!

Offline Archer

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 07:24:42 AM »
It is fine, but keep in mind that some people are new to the UWZ edition , and can sometimes come to the problem on their own so they post here. Since the forum posts and FAQ leave some questions to be answered...well, a curious person will start a thread, just like i did (i switched to it recently from 1st ed.).

It's not to harass those who already debated the idea  ;), especially not the cranky ones!

No sweat Oakwolf.

  This particular subject is a sore one for me.... I am usually very agreeable on many things but on this one, its grrrrrrrrr.
John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 10:02:15 AM »
There's valid reasons for it to be sore, because the system is good, with a few discrepancies like this one.

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2010, 03:36:46 PM »
Well, after testing this a bit and discussing more, here’s what we’ve settled on:

Premises

i.    We appreciated that the FAQ kept the CC modifiers of rifle weapons. This serves to distinguish ranged troops further from assault ones, since they, in our opinion, already have a hard time in UWZ.

ii.    We liked the fact that the improvised weapon rule, as defined earlier in the discussion, used the ST stat in close combat, rather than ranged damage, for assault riffles. Belzarach troops doing 11 DAM in cc was a kick in the balls for troops with pistols or smgs (or the yari shogun rifles).

iii    We assumed that any improvement in CC should be reflected as extra cost.

iv.    The bayonet section was a mess, no matter the ruling you pick, they were either useless, overpriced or overpowered.

So here's what we settled upon as house rules:

1. All weapons with a dash in CC may be used with a -4 modifier. This allows shotguns or other clumsy weapons to be used as clubs. Weapons used as clubs inflict ST for damage (this include assault rifles without bayonets, of course). The damage type is concussive.

2. The bayonet section is replaced as follows:

Bayonet (2pts): Bayonets can take many forms, but all improve the weapon's effectiveness at close quarters. A bayonet allows an assault rifle to inflict ST+3 rending damage in close combat.

3. Weapons of exception. Some rare large weapons were designed to function in close combat by default, but their effectiveness varies to extremes depending on the rule taken (from crap in the rulebook, to awesome in the FAQ).

These are the Belzarach and Scythe of Semai.
To represent their natural CC oriented design, they are allowed to fit a bayonet as described above. Obviously, no other load-out is permitted on those weapons.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 02:33:22 PM by Oakwolf »

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2010, 11:34:15 AM »
You mention something that continues to make me scratch my head; CC troops already have a hard time in UWZ.  I find this comment puzzling.

UWZ is very balanced, and CC troops stand just as much a chance to inflict damage as ranged troops.

The book states - very clearly - that UWZ game boards should contain a lot of terrain.  Are you using a lot of terrain?  If not, this may be why you find it difficult for CC troops to earn their points.  Aslo, environmental rules should always be used.  This is a great leveler of the playing field.

Our group uses a very good mix of CC and RC troops when we play, and it is the CC troops many of us fear most, as once they do get close, they are gonna put a whooping on some unfortunate shooty troop.

I, myself, and trying to get my Mortant painted so that I can counter the CC troops that invariably mess up my tactics.

When you say that they have a hard time, how?  Thanks.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2010, 06:47:39 PM »
Did you check the house rule btw? i'd like your feedback on it. It seems to work very well for us so far, or should i make a separate post for it?

Anyway as for your question. It is the general feeling we have atm, because the result is much alike what occured in Necromunda (cc is cool, but shooting is better, statistically). Perhaps we need even more terrain...i don't know. Also we haven't dabbled in the environmental rules yet, so we'll try this too.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2010, 07:42:05 PM »
I did check it out, but I will withhold judgement until I've gotten some other folks to check it out.  Plus, I'd like to see you use the rules for terrain and environments before making final judgement of the Dodger Rule.

I promise to keep an open mind about it, and will see if I can get some playtesting in.

The reason I inquired about your comment concerning CC is that it is a common misconception of many players who decry that it is too tough for CC troops.  Invariably, many are, simply, not using enough terrain and are ignoring the environmental rules.  Not only do they balance the game, but they make it much more fun.  They also make troops who have environmental training useful, not to mention environmental loadouts, and such.

Unfortunately, Necromunda suffers from the sparse terrain that is common for WH40K games.  Check out some of the pictures from Talamania to see the judicious amounts of terrain we use.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 07:47:26 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Oakwolf

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2010, 01:50:26 PM »
I did check it out, but I will withhold judgement until I've gotten some other folks to check it out.  Plus, I'd like to see you use the rules for terrain and environments before making final judgement of the Dodger Rule.

I promise to keep an open mind about it, and will see if I can get some playtesting in.

The reason I inquired about your comment concerning CC is that it is a common misconception of many players who decry that it is too tough for CC troops.  Invariably, many are, simply, not using enough terrain and are ignoring the environmental rules.  Not only do they balance the game, but they make it much more fun.  They also make troops who have environmental training useful, not to mention environmental loadouts, and such.

Unfortunately, Necromunda suffers from the sparse terrain that is common for WH40K games.  Check out some of the pictures from Talamania to see the judicious amounts of terrain we use.

I agree to this. So I’ll post a thread specifically for testing the house rule, let’s call it “Bayonet revision”

I think you hit the nail on the head with the 40k syndrome. The tables are often almost clear…and they even have a current (highly powerful) tactic called “the IG parking lot”. I don’t know about you but…placing figs in a deployment zone only to thereafter roll dice and remove figs back into trays is not…great fun, especially for the opponent.

Anyway, back onto topic. The reasons I (personally, my friends are not concerned here) found that CC troops had difficulty, was as follows:

1.   The number of actions needed for a CC trooper to get 1 chance to kill vs is much greater than for a shooting trooper, which is to essentially move into a position then engage.

2.   You are right when you say that both types of troopers have the same odds of killing their prey (basically), but the occurrence is much more difficult to achieve for the CC trooper, while the RC combatant can perhaps get that occurrence on turn 1.  So…just extrapolating that reasoning, both troopers need to shoot or strike roughly the same numbers of time to get a kill, but one of the two gets far more actions to attempt it…so perhaps the CC trooper should get a better chance to kill on its strike? Just food for thought.

3.   The way weapons are made, it is relatively safe to say that a CC trooper will typically get 1 activation before being shot down or its unit at least mauled by return fire. I’m talking of LMG/HMG/SMG/Flamer/Shotgun fire that is rather cheap to get and can cripple any troop that comes in range. Granted, multiple wound characters do help, but as with characters in UWZ, everything falls when shot by a unit. Then you have vehicles, and flying ones which are hard counters.

Overall though, I am eager to test with an extra amount of LOS obstacles, as this could help put some pressure on the shooting troops to make use of their extra range…but the question is to balance it out as to not make the LR or ER completely useless.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2010, 06:19:12 AM »
The last point you raise is, in my opinion, the most important.  LR and ER range bands should not, by default, be useless.  They should not, however, be easy to exploit, either.  The balance should be in the forces one brings to the fight.  We manage to control/balance this by several means:

 - Design forces as we would for a tournament; i.e.: Design with no prior knowledge of which field upon which your army will be fielded.  Therefore, you may choose to spend points on Survival Training/Load Outs, or choose different troops to adapt to the environment.  Roll for environmental type and level.  Vulkans are my favorite unit, yet suffer in level 3 jungle (or higher) due to limited visibility.  My Bauhas Snipers HATE that!  But, when playing in a tournement, one must design a balanced force where the strengths can be exploited, and the weaknesses minimized.  If everyone knows the battle going in, and the terrain does not favor CC troops, then CC troops should be left behind, unless they have Stealth or other abilities to keep them concealed until they are ready to strike.

 - Play with clear objectives and/or turn limits.

 - Lots o' terrain (it bears repeating):  Terrain allows cover, and LOS-blocking movement.  It forces a shooter-heavy army to find fire lanes and back up units with cover fire, and gives CC troops ample oppurtunity to get into position to attack.

 - Re-examine player tactics.  When all else is equal (PC, dice rolls, terrain, etc.), superior tactics win games.  If a player is running CC troops into the open, they are going to draw fire.  Put them behind other units, or move them behind LOS-blocking terrain.

If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2010, 10:34:58 AM »
T add to what dave says here....

When I was running events prior to the EE boards being available for use, I always tried to make the lanes of fire no more than 36 inches... on average they were in the neighborhood of 30 or so.  Even, there would be stuff out there that could be hidden behind.  But there was always better and more occluded/shielded ways to get there.  Just took longer in most cases.

  In certain environments, it was not as easy to do... which is where the Environmental Effects come in.  The Desert board was both a favorite and a hated board for many players...  AS the Jamming rules saved alot of CC troops from ranged death (yes Dave, I can hear you cursing me already... :) )

Night-fighting areas were always the CC and CQB specialist's playground, unless there was elite units with nite-vision.  Then it was careful thinking on manuever unless you had your own.

One always tried to plan for most-common denominator in terrain/environmental, gambling on being right about selections.  I've been doomed by this as has Dave in a few cases.... but as he's said and I will repeat-examine your tactics and see if there is something you can do to fix the trouble you are having.

Terrain is a big help as is Environmental Rules.

CC troops in the Jungle rock. :)
John "Archer" Tinney

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"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

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Offline Oakwolf

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2010, 01:34:19 PM »
Apparently the environmental rules are not as optional as the book say it is. After running through and making a few sample tests, it definitely helps to balance things out and our next game will be in the jungle.

Ah btw archer, if you could help me test the house rule in this same forum i'd be greateful.

and lastly...question, where is the jam rule defined?

I can read in the general environmental effects section that on a 20 the weapon jams...but what occurs then? In 1st edition you'd loose all actions left. I couldn't find that precision though. *waves for assistance in a sea of UWZ pages*
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 03:35:48 PM by Oakwolf »

Offline Archer

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2010, 05:21:58 PM »
If I can find my book, I'll let you know where it is.

I've a bad feeling it was in an Errata document....  I'll go looking.
John "Archer" Tinney

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"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y

Offline Archer

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Re: UWZ - ranged weapons in cc -
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2010, 05:39:13 PM »
Found it- well, part of it.  :P

Pg 101 Section 16.2.1 General Effects.
Weapon Malfunction
  Units that suffer this effect suffer a series of jams and weapon failures.  This could be to frozen gun actions, sand in the firing mechanism or moisture.  The effect of this is a jam will occur on any to hit roll greater than 20 minus the environmental level.

For example-

  Troops in a Desert Environment 3 would have their weapon jam on a roll of 20-3=17 or better.  The results are treated as if you had rolled a 20 normally as per the book.

 There had been a clarification (based on practical experience of all us ex-military types) making it an action to clear the weapon for use again.  To my knowledge, it never saw the board or the FAQ.  Might want to check that...

I know we use it (hence the McGee Curse) and as per the Book, units with Survival Skill lower the overall general effect (Survival 2 in a Desert 3 environment suffer problems on a 19 or 20).

If Dave or a FAQ guy knows where further clarification may be, I'd appreciate it too...
John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y